Tow vehicle ?? - Page 4 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 02-24-2011, 07:47 PM   #43
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Name: Jesse
Trailer: 1984 Scamp 13'
Maryland
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The damage to your CRV is surprising, given that you only had a ~200 pound tongue weight on a class III hitch. Most of the hitch failures I know of are due to excessive tongue weight, rather than trailer weight. In fact, a number of them were not trailers at all, but bicycles on racks. People fail to realize how much weight they are putting on a long lever arm.

Since you mentioned the ~200 lb weight, I am assuming you actually weighed it, which is more than most people are willing to do. When I bought my 13' Scamp, it had nearly a 180 lb tongue weight!! This is with no cargo, no A/C, and no water. No bathroom, either. I know that many 13 foot Scamps have a tongue weight well over 200 pounds. This is simply poor trailer design on Scamp's part. Not a problem if you tow with a truck (other than putting more stress on the tongue, coupler, and frame than necessary), but Scamps were designed to be towed with cars.. so a lighter tongue weight would be ideal. I relocated the battery and did a few other mods to get the tongue weight down to about 130 pounds. Once I replace the 20 lb steel propane tank with a 10 lb fiberglass one, it will be even lower.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Normand Choiniere View Post
....... I also got a weight distribution system that I recommend to everyone who tow with marginal towing vehicle.
Just a word of warning regarding Weight Distribution systems - not all vehicle manufactures support the use of them on their vehicles. Subaru's manual for example clearly states they are not to be used.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:49 PM   #45
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Name: Dave (and/or John)
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Right now I tow my Scamp 16SD with a Dodge Dakota Quad cab. Very easy tow, lots of power, but I don't plan to keep as many vehicles when I retire.
I also have a Subaru rated to tow 2700 lbs that I used with my pop-up, and have actually relocated some items temporarily on my Scamp to get the tongue weight down to 200 lbs for the test tow, and the Subaru performed admirably.
Once I make the weight changes permanent (mostly what Jesse is doing with weight redistribution) I'll have the flexibility to be able to tow with either one depending on the trip.

I ran across an article that mentions SAE towing standards are coming, but it's a link to the $73 SAE manual. It mentions it should apply to 2013 model year. This would be a good thing!

John


SAE J2807
2010-SEP-01 • Active/Current •
Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating
Description:
This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine towvehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 13 000 lb GVWR. It is recommended that the performance requirements within be adopted for all vehicles with model year designation 2013 or later.

Purpose

This document establishes tow-vehicle performance requirements for combination vehicle acceleration, gradeability, understeer, trailer sway response, braking and park brake at GCWR, and tow-vehicle hitch/attachment structure at TWR. In order to minimize test variations, it provides standard test trailer specifications and requirements for use in these tests. It is acknowledged that there are a wide variety of conditions experienced while trailering which cannot be completely addressed within this document and in no way is this document intended to establish or limit manufacturers' designs or instructions to the customer. This document provides simple equations to determine TWR from GCWR in conjunction with other vehicle ratings and defined vehicle weight conditions and dimensions.



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Old 02-24-2011, 09:27 PM   #46
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SAE J2807 Towing Standard

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Haggerty View Post

I ran across an article that mentions SAE towing standards are coming, but it's a link to the $73 SAE manual. It mentions it should apply to 2013 model year. This would be a good thing!

John


SAE J2807
2010-SEP-01 • Active/Current •
Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating
Description:
This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine towvehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 13 000 lb GVWR. It is recommended that the performance requirements within be adopted for all vehicles with model year designation 2013 or later.

Purpose

This document establishes tow-vehicle performance requirements for combination vehicle acceleration, gradeability, understeer, trailer sway response, braking and park brake at GCWR, and tow-vehicle hitch/attachment structure at TWR. In order to minimize test variations, it provides standard test trailer specifications and requirements for use in these tests. It is acknowledged that there are a wide variety of conditions experienced while trailering which cannot be completely addressed within this document and in no way is this document intended to establish or limit manufacturers' designs or instructions to the customer. This document provides simple equations to determine TWR from GCWR in conjunction with other vehicle ratings and defined vehicle weight conditions and dimensions.



Sounds
John:

I hope that the trailer community will embrace this new standard. Surely we need a rational basis for determining towing capacity!

Here is a link which might be useful:

SAE Issues Towing Standard - SAE J2807

Brian
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:27 AM   #47
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I was pulling the Lite•House with a 1999 2.4L Tacoma. As of last week, I'm using a 2011 2.7L Tacoma. Life is good!
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:30 AM   #48
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Name: Normand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Just a word of warning regarding Weight Distribution systems - not all vehicle manufactures support the use of them on their vehicles. Subaru's manual for example clearly states they are not to be used.
I am very well aware about this. For example the recommendation is not the same for an Odyssey and a Pilot : same "frame", same motor and transmission but the Pilot is 4 WD.

By the way my hitch (on the CRV) was a Curt (branded and installed by U-Haul) rated 350/3500 lbs. As far as the hitch was concerned there was an ample margin of security. The problem was really the inadequate structure and suspension of a CR-V (and the Element).
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:28 AM   #49
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Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
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Normand,
I have the same Curt Hitch. My first one failed on the Labrador Highway, cracking and eventually failing at the third hitch screw down point (the hitch is bolted to the sheet metal beams in four places and screwed with a U connection at the tow point). I returned it to Curt for a free replacement.

I did not detect the failure on the hitch during our Labarador trip however it did not seem to affect towing quality since it was well rusted around the crack by the time we reached NH. I will say that during the trip I checked the tightness of the 4 frame bolts once a week knowing there was more than the normal amount of vibration due to the dirt highway. I foolishly did not inspect the 5th connection.

I just checked my second one that I've had for nearly three years. It has the beginnings of the same failure. The crack can be seen in the picture.

I believe there are two problems. The supplied U bracket and the tow hook are both cylinders. When they are tightened together they make line contact. Line contact means high force/unit area. Any vibration causes a flattening of the cylinders which means loosening allowing flexure at the joint causing cracking and eventual failure. I plan to take the hitch off and have a piece of steel welded over the crack area further stiffening it.

While under the Honda I checked for Honda Weld failures. There are none (after four years of extensive towing). Our Honda CRV is a second generation vehicle compared to your 2000, though I admit I do not know the difference.

Outside of the hitch issue, so far so good.

Norm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Normand Choiniere View Post
I am very well aware about this. For example the recommendation is not the same for an Odyssey and a Pilot : same "frame", same motor and transmission but the Pilot is 4 WD.

By the way my hitch (on the CRV) was a Curt (branded and installed by U-Haul) rated 350/3500 lbs. As far as the hitch was concerned there was an ample margin of security. The problem was really the inadequate structure and suspension of a CR-V (and the Element).
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:57 PM   #50
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Name: Darnelle
Trailer: 13 ft Scamp
Minnesota
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We have a Scamp 16' SD, no bath or A/C. Tow with a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee Larado. All factory tow package except had to add the brake controller. Jeep is all-time 4x4, tow with overdrive off. Excellent vehicle, perfect for bad weather (we live in Minnesota woods). Always lousy mileage, but isn't noticeably worse when towing.
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:04 PM   #51
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Do these Honda's have a full frame? if not then I can see why there are so many problems. You cant bolt steel to a pop can and not expect problems.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:56 PM   #52
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Name: Norm and Ginny
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I am an engineer and understand standards. My only fear is that standards groups often become controled by manufacturers who's, understandably, primary interest is their own survial.

Just a thought,

Norm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Van Snell View Post
John:

I hope that the trailer community will embrace this new standard. Surely we need a rational basis for determining towing capacity!

Here is a link which might be useful:

SAE Issues Towing Standard - SAE J2807

Brian
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:13 PM   #53
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Honda CRV's have unibody construction, no traditional 'Henry Ford' Ladder frame. I believe unibody construction offers a lighter more integrated structure. The only thing I can testify to after 5 Honda's is that the bodies never had an issues and the high reving gas engines seem to easily do 250,000 miles.

My only other experience with a unibody was a 50' diameter, fiberglass coated, geodesic dome we built for a home. The dome took very little in the way of materials yet the fiberglass welding of 1/2" plywood (6 foot spans between joints) made an unbelievably stiff structure.

I realize now why I like Fiberglass RVs; I used to live in a stationary fiber glass one (the dome) with 1962 square feet on the first floor.

Norm

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Originally Posted by Greg H View Post
Do these Honda's have a full frame? if not then I can see why there are so many problems. You cant bolt steel to a pop can and not expect problems.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:58 PM   #54
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We tow the 13ft Trillium with a 2009 Ford Ranger, 4 litre, 4x4. Not great mileage but it is a good vehicle for the two of us.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:35 PM   #55
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Name: Normand
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Originally Posted by Greg H View Post
Do these Honda's have a full frame? if not then I can see why there are so many problems. You cant bolt steel to a pop can and not expect problems.
This is exactly the problem. The shop that repaired the CR-V installed long and thick metal plates inside the car on both sides of the floor and long bolts from the hitch to the plates in order to have a much more solid attachment than what you qualify as a "pop can" set up.

Let me also mention that the CR-V was an excellent SUV for other purposes than towing. I live in a very snowy country in mountainous area and the 4 WD traction was excellent. As far as the motor, the transmission etc... were concerned that car was superior.

And I still consider my Trillium 1300 as a very nice trailer. I am more than sold to fiberglass trailers.

All this is now behind me and I love my Trillium 5500!
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:20 PM   #56
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Name: Ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darnelle View Post
We have a Scamp 16' SD, no bath or A/C. Tow with a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee Larado. All factory tow package except had to add the brake controller. Jeep is all-time 4x4, tow with overdrive off. Excellent vehicle, perfect for bad weather (we live in Minnesota woods). Always lousy mileage, but isn't noticeably worse when towing.
Darnelle
What happened to the truck yo picked it up with?
I know the tranny leaked but I didn't realize you replaced it?
Hope all is well with you,the baby and the Scamp?
Ed
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