Towing a 16' Scamp with small diesel

[marijke]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

I have towed my 16' Scamp with our 2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI with no problems.
This was last from Mineral Wells TX through Austin to Mobile in the hot part of the summer.
he limitation is with the hitch loading and not so much the trailer weight.
The JSW is equipped with the DSG transmission.
140 hp, but 270 ft of torque moves the wagon and trailer nicely.
25 MPG towing 62 - 65 mph.
Of course if the US VW does not recommend the towing at the limit the UK VW does then you are the devil himself for violating VW owner's manual's limitations and every lawyer in the US will line up to litigate.
The Touareg is good for lots.

I have a Jetta TDI wagon that will be towing a 515 kg empty/ 750 kg loaded trailer. In Europe this is completely normal. The Golf TDI was tow vehicle of the year ;-) while here my wagon is rated for 500 kg.
Interesting to read how different it is here. I wish I knew why that is so.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by marijke

I have a Jetta TDI wagon that will be towing a 515 kg empty/ 750 kg loaded trailer. In Europe this is completely normal. The Golf TDI was tow vehicle of the year ;-) while here my wagon is rated for 500 kg.
Interesting to read how different it is here. I wish I knew why that is so.

Marijke... Many of us wonder the same thing. The link in post #1 here pretty much explains the issues.... http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...les-68075.html

[MC1]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

All that you have to do is to extend the frame rails full width past the front of the shell and use the center 4' between them to build the dropped shower pan and black tank.
I used a pan from a transtar 37" X 24" with the frame made to fit it.
I have posted some pictures somewhere here on the forum.
The side bath was much too short to use the shower while the new bath floor is the same level as the main floor and the roof is higher in the front than the side as well.
This is pretty much still a work in progress.

Nice work JD. It's always good to see improvement/upgrade mods being done to trailer and TV.

[rdickens]

Tom,

If you get a diesel or turbo tow vehicle, I hope you will let us know what you got and how
it works out. Please! ..... 😉

Since both the diesel and turbo were extra cost options on a new purchase, I came very
close to getting a diesel tug. If my cousin had not retired from the KC Ford plant and
told me about the power of his recent Ecoboost acquisition ..... who knows, I might have
diesel tow vehicle today? 😉

Ray


Sent from my iPad using Fiberglass RV

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by marijke

I have a Jetta TDI wagon that will be towing a 515 kg empty/ 750 kg loaded trailer. In Europe this is completely normal. The Golf TDI was tow vehicle of the year ;-) while here my wagon is rated for 500 kg.
Interesting to read how different it is here. I wish I knew why that is so.

Not just different towing practises in NA (we don't have low tow speed ratings across whole countries ) but there was video posted on the topic previously where VW acknowledged that they are not built the same for the NA market as they are for the European market. Different suspension components for one thing.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by rdickens

With my Ford Ecoboost 2.0L,

Ray

Your newish 2.0L EB is impressive Ray. The older Escapes even with the V6 did not have a lot of towing power. The chart below also shows the huge differences in performance even when vehicles are listed in the same tow rating groups.

Tom... you can see how well the older gas BMW X3 performs. Nice!!!

[honda03842]

I have now personally met 3 people towing with 4 cylinder VW diesels, 2 were towing Altos and the third a 20-24 foot more traditional trailer. All were set up by Can-AM RV. All owners stated their trailers towed very well and were happy with their VWs as a tow vehicle.

I did look under one of the VWs and could see that Can-AM appeared to add a stiffening element to the chassis.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by MC1

Your newish 2.0L EB is impressive Ray. The older Escapes even with the V6 did not have a lot of towing power. The chart below also shows the huge differences in performance even when vehicles are listed in the same tow rating groups.

Tom... you can see how well the older gas BMW X3 performs. Nice!!!

Transmission gearing comes into play on these figures. For example, the current 8-speed tranny in the Grand Cherokee and Durango have a substantially lower first gear than the old 5-speed, which raises RPM faster and thereby increases HP and torque sooner... resulting in faster times. (My guess is that the chart is a few years old, and the transmissions were the 5-speeds.)

[MC1]

Agree Mike... gearing is so important.

Another interesting observation is that the Nissan Munaro on the list has a CVT tranny and the lumbering Lexus GX470 is a 4.7 V8.

[redbarron55]

That 750 KG towing limit in the UK is for an unbraked application while the braked limit is 1500 KG or 3300 lbs.
Also if you were to use the ETKA parts lookup for VW part numbers for ALL VW european and US you would see that the chassis and running gear are the same. The only real difference is you cannot easily buy a towbar to fit as the OEM does. I happend to have installed the Westfalia OEM tow bar on my 2009 JSW.
It tows quite well. I am also installing 10" brake drums on the trailer so that should not be much of an issue for stopping.
The VW also has trailer ESP that controls sway when the factory wiring harness detects a trailer has been installed. I don't have this system installed in my car yet, but I am considering it as well.
The problem with towing with the VW ans most small cars is the hitch weight limit. This is the reason for the extended frame on my project. I guess my new Scamp will be a ~ 17 footer.

[rdickens]

I agree that gearing is what brings the engine rpm into the proper range
to generate the needed torque for towing and that gearing is a fairly
important factor for non-turbo non-diesel engines. If you've read the
following article, you realize that torque is the ability to do work (i.e.
pull a trailer through the wind or up a grade) and hp provides the ability
to do work quickly (i.e. acceleration to pass another vehicle or get up
to speed to merge into traffic from an on ramp.)

Towing - horsepower versus torque
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/horsepower-versus-torque1.htm　

For turbo engines and diesel engines most of the engine torque is
available at much lower rpms.

For towing at 60+ mph with our Honda CRV, we often needed to use
the D3 setting on the transmission. That locked out overdrive gearing
and immediately jumped the engine rpm up beyond 3000 rpm.
(Remember that the Honda CRV developed its best torque of
163 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm). Compared to the normal non-towing rpm
of below 2000 rpm, my wife always said that it sounded to her
like the CRV engine was "racing" when we were in D3.

Looking at the torque curve for the Ford 2.0L EB engine, in the
following article, you will see that, at 1700 - 2000 rpm, the Ford
Escape 2.0L EB engine generates the same or more than the max
torque of the CRV. A similar high-torque@low-rpm characteristic
is probably available with most of the small diesel engines.

Stout EcoBoost I-4 Plays Well Above Weight Class
http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-technology/stout-ecoboost-i-4-plays-well-above-weight-class

With 270 lb-ft of torque and 140 hp, I would expect that the
VW JSW would tow quite nicely and get great economy, but
might not be too quick in passing or accelerating into traffic
from an on ramp. (I don't know that to be true; it would just
be my guess from the stats.)

When we are towing at ~60 mph in the D gear of our Ford Escape,
the engine rpm is around 1700-1750. If I put the 6-spd SelectShift
transmission into S or S5, the rpm goes up to about 2250. If you
look at the torque curve for the Ford 2.0L EB, you'll see that we
are getting most of the engines torque in those ranges.

Since the OPs original question was about towing a Scamp16 with
a small diesel, I wish I had the torque curves and 60-mph RPM
ranges for the vehicles that he is considering. Although the general
torque and hp stats are available on sites like Edmunds.com and
Cars.com, I have sometimes found it a little difficult to come up
with the actual torque curve for various engines/vehicles.

Again ..... just my 2 cents worth. As always, YMMV.


Ray

[marijke]

Hi Redbarron,

Where did you order/ find/ buy your Westfalia tow bar? Would love to know!
Thanks already,
Marijke

[rdickens]

Originally Posted by honda03842

A key parameter of towing is aerodynamic drag, the biggest load on the tow vehicle on the flat. Weight becomes the issue on steep hills. There one must down shift. Real hills are statistically a small percentage of travel time.

I believe that Norm is quite right on these points. The following pix
probably paint a clearer picture about aerodynamic drag than
multiple paragraphs of words.



(If I could remember where I got each of these pix, I would be glad
to credit the source. Although some of the pix might be a year or
two old, I think that the general concepts still apply. )

Ray

[redbarron55]

Originally Posted by marijke

Hi Redbarron,

Where did you order/ find/ buy your Westfalia tow bar? Would love to know!
Thanks already,
Marijke

I bought mine off ebay from someone who bought the wrong unit for their car. It wasn't exactly correct for my JSW either, but have welder, will travel!

P.F. Jones in the UK will sell you one, but the shipping is pretty spicy.
If you also add the Westfalia wiring kit (also factory OEM) then this detects the trailer and changes the operating mode of the car to trailer towing optimized along with turning on the T-ESP for greater safety.
The wiring kit will come with the weird european plugs and will have to be adapted, but there is a setting through the car's computer to activate the system and select North America for the brake light operation.
The link to P.F. Jones VW is :

Volkswagen Towbars

Careful now THEY are watching to catch you towing with the VW!

[marijke]

Hi again Redbarron,

Thanks so much, will try Ebay. Will visit my family in Holland in Sept. so if Ebay fails I can pick it up there and bring back.
So much for everything global ;-(( and do you think I will be in trouble towing my little dutch trailer with my little Jetta?

[MC1]

Marijke.... Lots of Jetta's are towing trailers. They seem to work very well.....

https://www.google.ca/search?q=etta+...ml%3B399%3B193

[redbarron55]

I read your post on the Ford Eco-Boost so I thought I would try one this afternoon
Connie and I made an appointment with the Ford dealer to try the Escape 2.0 EcoBoost.
We found the CUV was sluggish compared to the Jetta Wagon TDI.
We then tried the Edge with the V6 Ecoboost and found that it was peppoer than the 2,0 Escape it was also not as "torquy" as the VW. Of course the VW is lighter and neither was pulling a trailer.
Also to pull the 3500 lbs the Fords must have the FACTORY towing package so that the stabilization system will work with the towing package. Aftermarket hitches will not add the stabilization required to tow 3500 lbs.
After trying both we decided we liked the 232,000 mile Jetta Sportwagen TDI better.
We think that when it is time we might just buy another VW wagon.

[rdickens]

JD,

Interesting.

I did order the factory tow package but, I didn't think that
requirement involved the anti-sway function.

As mentioned, my son has 2 older VW Jetta TDIs and I know
that they are good cars.

With less weight, similar torque, a diesel engine, and no
trailer, I'm not surprised that the JSW would be a little
quicker off the line.

At the time we purchased, with less weight and 100 less hp,
I just wasn't sure that they would be up to pulling a 16/17ft
trailer and that was my wife's request for getting a new car.

I'm very glad you are happy with yours.

As always, YMMV. To each his own ......

Ray

[redbarron55]

I think that the power and weight are important to match. The Ford with more power from the V^ would do better than the VW with a trailer nearer to the 3500 lb limit.
Also I think that the most noticeable difference is the amount of boost off idle with the two (three) cars.
The VW has a smaller turbo and vanes that control the boost and has high boost from idle up and the boost decreases as the rpms increase to some extent.
The ford while is has good power once the demand has been made does not respond the same and is slower to pickup.
We noticed the same difference between the V6 (Mercedes Benz) diesel in the Jeep Grand Cherokee we test drove compared to the Touareg VW.
I think that either is adequate for the purpose intended and the Ford is a good choice. Now that I have test driven the Edge with the V6 I need to make sure the one we drove was the 2.7 V6 EcoBoost and not the 3.5 V6. That might make a big difference.
Probably at a weight much higher than our Scamp we would need a bigger car (SUV).
Connie and I discussed the search for a replacement for our 5+ year old 232,000 mile JSW and we have just about decided we need a new GSW (Golf Sport Wagen). They are just becoming available. Probably we will wait for at least a 2016 for the new NAV system. The RNS510 is a little dated.
I kind of dread having to get a VW setup for towing, getting a new Westfalia hitch etc. I think Bosal has a hitch that can take a square receiver type adapter and I would like to have one of those instead of the swan neck.



Note that the hitch has those arms that extend into the side rails of the trunk and tie the unit very solidly into the frame of the car. This is why the ratings for the OEM system in the UK is so much higher. Also when connected with the car's stability system it is safer. This is like the Ford's factory installation tha also has to couple into the car's stability system to qualify for the 3500 lb tow rating. Very IMPORTANT!

[MC1]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

I kind of dread having to get a VW setup for towing, getting a new Westfalia hitch etc. I think Bosal has a hitch that can take a square receiver type adapter and I would like to have one of those instead of the swan neck.

I agree... The off shore offering is nothing special. On our car we needed an HD 2" receiver and opted for a locally made pro custom. No flex with the WDH. Clean, neat and tidy. Ten years old now. No rust and works as good as new.