Towing a 16' Scamp with small diesel - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 04-06-2015, 07:09 AM   #29
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Agree Mike... gearing is so important.

Another interesting observation is that the Nissan Munaro on the list has a CVT tranny and the lumbering Lexus GX470 is a 4.7 V8.
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Old 04-06-2015, 08:19 AM   #30
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That 750 KG towing limit in the UK is for an unbraked application while the braked limit is 1500 KG or 3300 lbs.
Also if you were to use the ETKA parts lookup for VW part numbers for ALL VW european and US you would see that the chassis and running gear are the same. The only real difference is you cannot easily buy a towbar to fit as the OEM does. I happend to have installed the Westfalia OEM tow bar on my 2009 JSW.
It tows quite well. I am also installing 10" brake drums on the trailer so that should not be much of an issue for stopping.
The VW also has trailer ESP that controls sway when the factory wiring harness detects a trailer has been installed. I don't have this system installed in my car yet, but I am considering it as well.
The problem with towing with the VW ans most small cars is the hitch weight limit. This is the reason for the extended frame on my project. I guess my new Scamp will be a ~ 17 footer.
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Old 04-06-2015, 08:39 AM   #31
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I agree that gearing is what brings the engine rpm into the proper range
to generate the needed torque for towing and that gearing is a fairly
important factor for non-turbo non-diesel engines. If you've read the
following article, you realize that torque is the ability to do work (i.e.
pull a trailer through the wind or up a grade) and hp provides the ability
to do work quickly (i.e. acceleration to pass another vehicle or get up
to speed to merge into traffic from an on ramp.)

Towing - horsepower versus torque
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/horsepower-versus-torque1.htm 

For turbo engines and diesel engines most of the engine torque is
available at much lower rpms.

For towing at 60+ mph with our Honda CRV, we often needed to use
the D3 setting on the transmission. That locked out overdrive gearing
and immediately jumped the engine rpm up beyond 3000 rpm.
(Remember that the Honda CRV developed its best torque of
163 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm). Compared to the normal non-towing rpm
of below 2000 rpm, my wife always said that it sounded to her
like the CRV engine was "racing" when we were in D3.

Looking at the torque curve for the Ford 2.0L EB engine, in the
following article, you will see that, at 1700 - 2000 rpm, the Ford
Escape 2.0L EB engine generates the same or more than the max
torque of the CRV. A similar high-torque@low-rpm characteristic
is probably available with most of the small diesel engines.

Stout EcoBoost I-4 Plays Well Above Weight Class
http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-technology/stout-ecoboost-i-4-plays-well-above-weight-class

With 270 lb-ft of torque and 140 hp, I would expect that the
VW JSW would tow quite nicely and get great economy, but
might not be too quick in passing or accelerating into traffic
from an on ramp. (I don't know that to be true; it would just
be my guess from the stats.)

When we are towing at ~60 mph in the D gear of our Ford Escape,
the engine rpm is around 1700-1750. If I put the 6-spd SelectShift
transmission into S or S5, the rpm goes up to about 2250. If you
look at the torque curve for the Ford 2.0L EB, you'll see that we
are getting most of the engines torque in those ranges.

Since the OPs original question was about towing a Scamp16 with
a small diesel, I wish I had the torque curves and 60-mph RPM
ranges for the vehicles that he is considering. Although the general
torque and hp stats are available on sites like Edmunds.com and
Cars.com, I have sometimes found it a little difficult to come up
with the actual torque curve for various engines/vehicles.

Again ..... just my 2 cents worth. As always, YMMV.


Ray
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:38 PM   #32
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Hi Redbarron,

Where did you order/ find/ buy your Westfalia tow bar? Would love to know!
Thanks already,
Marijke
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:00 PM   #33
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Towing a 16' Scamp with small diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post
A key parameter of towing is aerodynamic drag, the biggest load on the tow vehicle on the flat. Weight becomes the issue on steep hills. There one must down shift. Real hills are statistically a small percentage of travel time.
I believe that Norm is quite right on these points. The following pix
probably paint a clearer picture about aerodynamic drag than
multiple paragraphs of words.



(If I could remember where I got each of these pix, I would be glad
to credit the source. Although some of the pix might be a year or
two old, I think that the general concepts still apply. )

Ray
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Airstream_Wind_Tunnel_test.jpg   air_deflector_effect.JPG  

drag_reduction.jpg   Shape_n_drag.jpg  

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Old 04-06-2015, 01:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marijke View Post
Hi Redbarron,

Where did you order/ find/ buy your Westfalia tow bar? Would love to know!
Thanks already,
Marijke
I bought mine off ebay from someone who bought the wrong unit for their car. It wasn't exactly correct for my JSW either, but have welder, will travel!

P.F. Jones in the UK will sell you one, but the shipping is pretty spicy.
If you also add the Westfalia wiring kit (also factory OEM) then this detects the trailer and changes the operating mode of the car to trailer towing optimized along with turning on the T-ESP for greater safety.
The wiring kit will come with the weird european plugs and will have to be adapted, but there is a setting through the car's computer to activate the system and select North America for the brake light operation.
The link to P.F. Jones VW is :

Volkswagen Towbars

Careful now THEY are watching to catch you towing with the VW!
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Old 04-06-2015, 02:17 PM   #35
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Hi again Redbarron,

Thanks so much, will try Ebay. Will visit my family in Holland in Sept. so if Ebay fails I can pick it up there and bring back.
So much for everything global ;-(( and do you think I will be in trouble towing my little dutch trailer with my little Jetta?
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:26 PM   #36
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Marijke.... Lots of Jetta's are towing trailers. They seem to work very well.....

https://www.google.ca/search?q=etta+...ml%3B399%3B193
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Old 04-06-2015, 08:35 PM   #37
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I read your post on the Ford Eco-Boost so I thought I would try one this afternoon
Connie and I made an appointment with the Ford dealer to try the Escape 2.0 EcoBoost.
We found the CUV was sluggish compared to the Jetta Wagon TDI.
We then tried the Edge with the V6 Ecoboost and found that it was peppoer than the 2,0 Escape it was also not as "torquy" as the VW. Of course the VW is lighter and neither was pulling a trailer.
Also to pull the 3500 lbs the Fords must have the FACTORY towing package so that the stabilization system will work with the towing package. Aftermarket hitches will not add the stabilization required to tow 3500 lbs.
After trying both we decided we liked the 232,000 mile Jetta Sportwagen TDI better.
We think that when it is time we might just buy another VW wagon.
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Old 04-06-2015, 09:29 PM   #38
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JD,

Interesting.

I did order the factory tow package but, I didn't think that
requirement involved the anti-sway function.

As mentioned, my son has 2 older VW Jetta TDIs and I know
that they are good cars.

With less weight, similar torque, a diesel engine, and no
trailer, I'm not surprised that the JSW would be a little
quicker off the line.

At the time we purchased, with less weight and 100 less hp,
I just wasn't sure that they would be up to pulling a 16/17ft
trailer and that was my wife's request for getting a new car.

I'm very glad you are happy with yours.

As always, YMMV. To each his own ......

Ray
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:29 AM   #39
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I think that the power and weight are important to match. The Ford with more power from the V^ would do better than the VW with a trailer nearer to the 3500 lb limit.
Also I think that the most noticeable difference is the amount of boost off idle with the two (three) cars.
The VW has a smaller turbo and vanes that control the boost and has high boost from idle up and the boost decreases as the rpms increase to some extent.
The ford while is has good power once the demand has been made does not respond the same and is slower to pickup.
We noticed the same difference between the V6 (Mercedes Benz) diesel in the Jeep Grand Cherokee we test drove compared to the Touareg VW.
I think that either is adequate for the purpose intended and the Ford is a good choice. Now that I have test driven the Edge with the V6 I need to make sure the one we drove was the 2.7 V6 EcoBoost and not the 3.5 V6. That might make a big difference.
Probably at a weight much higher than our Scamp we would need a bigger car (SUV).
Connie and I discussed the search for a replacement for our 5+ year old 232,000 mile JSW and we have just about decided we need a new GSW (Golf Sport Wagen). They are just becoming available. Probably we will wait for at least a 2016 for the new NAV system. The RNS510 is a little dated.
I kind of dread having to get a VW setup for towing, getting a new Westfalia hitch etc. I think Bosal has a hitch that can take a square receiver type adapter and I would like to have one of those instead of the swan neck.



Note that the hitch has those arms that extend into the side rails of the trunk and tie the unit very solidly into the frame of the car. This is why the ratings for the OEM system in the UK is so much higher. Also when connected with the car's stability system it is safer. This is like the Ford's factory installation tha also has to couple into the car's stability system to qualify for the 3500 lb tow rating. Very IMPORTANT!
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarron55 View Post
I kind of dread having to get a VW setup for towing, getting a new Westfalia hitch etc. I think Bosal has a hitch that can take a square receiver type adapter and I would like to have one of those instead of the swan neck.


I agree... The off shore offering is nothing special. On our car we needed an HD 2" receiver and opted for a locally made pro custom. No flex with the WDH. Clean, neat and tidy. Ten years old now. No rust and works as good as new.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:26 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdickens View Post
While diesel engines and turbocharged engines both have great high-torque@low-rpm characteristics, you also might look at
acquisition costs, operation costs, and brand reliability. Ray
Ray, You left resale value out of your list of things to consider. Around these parts (Southeastern U.S.), used diesel pickups are in big demand - even those with what could be considered high mileage for a gas burner (200,000+ miles). Yes, the diesel engine costs extra up front, but if it's a proven model (there have been some duds) and well maintained, it's common to get that extra cost back at trade-in or resale. I have people tell me all the time to let them know when I'm ready to sell my 16-year-old 1999 Ford SuperDuty with the 7.3L diesel PowerStroke engine. Some don't care about the truck itself, they just want the engine out of it. To me, the only downside to a big diesel engine like mine is the 15 quarts of special diesel engine oil it takes at every oil change. Ouch! But I still love it - and just keep on truckin'!
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Old 04-12-2015, 12:21 PM   #42
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X3 Towing

I just picked up my 16' Scamp side dinette and towed it home with my 535xi wagon 6 speed manual, which did a great job, though it only got 20 mpg.

I also have a BMW 335d which will be set up for towing in the next couple weeks. I will let you know how that goes.

I have also been looking at 328d wagons, which with 280 ft lbs should do just fine too.

Hitches for these can be found at Execuhitch. The 335d is rated at 250/2500 and the 328d is rated at 350/3500. You will want to contact them to get the rating on the X3 (which has the same diesel motor as the 328d).

The only concern I have is the suspension on the 3 series (and maybe the X3 too) since Execuhitch doesn't recommend using a WDH. The 535 has air suspension, so there was no drooping at all on that one (though the Westfalia hitch is rated at 200/4000).

Just as a FYI, the dry weight of the trailer as it left the factory was 250/2100.
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