Yamaha EF2400iS Generator - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 09-10-2008, 11:21 PM   #15
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I donít see any thing like what you are talking about.

electric monitor for wattage or Amps
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
I donít see any thing like what you are talking about.

electric monitor for wattage or Amps
Could it be one of these?
Kill-A-Watt
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:44 PM   #17
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I donít see any thing like what you are talking about.

electric monitor for wattage or Amps
Get this Reliance Load Tester...

Name:   p2976117reg.jpg
Views: 85
Size:  23.8 KB

...I've reccomended getting one here before.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:59 AM   #18
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What you might try at the Y dealer for simplicity is to forget mentioning the Honda for now and have them test YOUR generator with YOUR RV and then hook up THEIR similar generator and see what happens. They say it is functioning properly because it meets the tests they have been given, but that may not account for the tests they have NOT be given.

If your generator and their alike generator yield dissimilar results, then they will be hard pressed to ignore the problem. Tell them you will be happy to take home their generator because it works and they should be happy to take home your generator because they think it works -- Har! Ask them if they really want to get involved with lawyers and courts and expensive expert witnesses over something like this.
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Old 09-11-2008, 06:40 AM   #19
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I'm going to offer a phrase with a great deal of tredpidation. It's because it's one of things like string theory physics that I don't fully understand.

The phrase is "Power Factor".

Perhaps one of our electrical engineers can elaborate as I may be way off base.

We know that watts = amps times volts. We know that AC is sinusoidal. Amps are sinusoidal and voltage is sinusoidal. To get the rated watts the volts and amps must peak at the same time. However, frequently they don't phase together. The amount they are different is the phase angle and the sine (or cosine, I don't remember which) of the angle is a factor that reduces the available wattage.

I'm wondering if the Honda has less loss due to phase angle than the Yamaha. Phase angle is why normal clunky generators need to be so much larger than the load they're serving. Better equipment has a higher power factor. A power factor of 1 is best. The closer to one you get the more you pay for it.

I'm uploading a PDF file that explains it. Again, I may be off base.

Note the dicussion on the bottom right of page 46 (no, the file isn't 46 pages long...it's an extract) titled "why won't my generator start my well pump...".

I actually spent some time looking for and eventually bought a clamp on meter that measures power factor. You all bring that trailer and generator over and we'll measure the heck out of it!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Phase_angle.pdf (27.0 KB, 31 views)
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:10 AM   #20
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I purchased the Reliance Load Tester from Harbor Freight after Bob H posted it and it works great. I looked through their catalog last pm and could not find it. It was less expensive at Harbor than at Ace.

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Old 09-11-2008, 10:53 AM   #21
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WOW, you guys are great. THANKS!

Lori and I off camping again this weekend in the High Sierras of California. I will have AC power but will be testing everything I can again.

Iíll let you know if & what I find.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:57 PM   #22
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AmWatt Reliance - same as above just less costly.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/sto...21255_200321255

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Old 09-11-2008, 04:36 PM   #23
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Might be something like this:

http://www.p3international.com/products/sp...0/P4400-CE.html
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Old 09-11-2008, 06:05 PM   #24
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One thing that people tend to forget when sizing generators is initial power draw for motors. This number is significantly higher than the anticipated power draw for a standard motor. Yamaha has a web page for suggested generator sizes:

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/...or/sizing.aspx

which shows the starting power to be an additive amount over the running power of the device, and surprisingly, this number is appx 50% higher than the running power of the unit. What this means, is that while your generator should power the device while running, it kicks it out during start up. Looking at the spec sheets of both devices (yamaha and honda) would indicate that even the Honda can't (or shouldn't) run your unit on start up. I used to have a motor home that required a 30 A circuit to run the AC. Without the AC, it ran fine on a 20 amp circuit. However, it would blow the breaker any time I would power up the AC.

What I don't recall in your conversation is whether or not you are going thru your RV inverter. (Plugging your RV/Trailer into the generator as opposed to a stand alone A/C.) I am assuming if you have a 13,500 BTU AC, it is mounted and wired thru the camper. This inverter also pulls significant load and can affect your generator.

While the honda appears to run your unit where the Yamaha does not is most likely a question that would be solved by analyzing your fusing requirements. House circuits often do not blow because the fuses are not instantaneous, but rather "slow blow" for motors specifically. Depending upon the fusing type in the unit may well solve why the Honda runs it and the Yamaha does not. I do not recommend that you change your fuse to solve this problem, as the fusing is set for the health and welfare of the generator. For all you know, the honda owner might have played with his fuses, and this causes problems in the longetivity of the unit. If you overdrive a generator, you will kill it sooner. These small trailers can often get away with a small AC unit and a 2000W generator, because even considering a 125% increase in load during start up, you may still be able to cover that increase. When your AC is 60-75% of your max generator output, (Which, by the way, they get cranky if they run at this for long periods of time...) When you add that start up current, bad things happen.

I have seen people use pennies as methods to go around fuses that blew. While it might work for a while, there is a reason for that breaker/fuse to blow. You have to be running more current then the generator is designed for. Another factor is that some systems have a greater engineering tolerance in the system than others. What this means is while some are designed to function at precisely what they are sold for, others are overdesigned in order to allow the system to live longer. Pushing that tolerance for convenience or cost, helps you to lose the benefit that it was originally intended for.

You can use a current meter,

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_0...20070921x00003a

which clamps around the conductor from the generator to your RV/AC, and it will tell you how much current you are running. Watch it...because the start up current will be greater than the running current. If it is very quick, you may need one that has storage information so that you can go back and look at the data. These are rather pricey, so if you know someone that has one...ask!

DO NOT USE YOUR MULTIMETER!!! They are not made to monitor high volumes of current.

Pam
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:48 PM   #25
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Pam, Thanks for trying to help. A couple of points I think you missed. Yes, I have read the Yamaha website and took a print out to the Service Center to make my points.

BTW: For the cost of that Fluke, I could be well on my way to buying a Honda EU2000i.

Fluke 360, LEAKAGE CURRENT CLAMP METER $642.99 OUCH!

My Trailer has a 11,000 BTU Air Conditioner. Yamaha says on their website the EF24000i will EASILY run a 13,500 BTU air conditioner. Also their specs state the generator will run a 750 watt microwave, which it doesn't.

The generator is suppose to be able to handle 3,000 watts surge and run at 2400 watts.

The generator is an Inverter generator. It does NOT run through the inverter.

Yamaha Service did not charge me the $75 fee for looking at it.

PS: I am in contact with a Yamaha executive. He stated they will help me resolve the issue.
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:17 AM   #26
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I use the Fluke 336 to measure AC inrush (starting) current. Only half as much too expensive (~$300).

But what I've always drooled over was the Fluke 43B, but even my advanced powers of rationalization won't let me spring $2,000 for a meter. I'm such a wuss.
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:27 AM   #27
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I use the Fluke 336 to measure AC inrush (starting) current. Only half as much too expensive (~$300).

But what I've always drooled over was the Fluke 43B, but even my advanced powers of rationalization won't let me spring $2,000 for a meter. I'm such a wuss.
Sears also sells one for $59...not quite as good... -I used it as a picture only...I guess I wasn't specific enough...I don't think I would spring for $2k...The data that I could pull off the web in the short term on the yamaha didn't have surge info on it...and the inverter that I was refering to would be inside your trailer. (i.e. did you plug into your trailer plug which also feeds an inverter and draws power, or is your trailer like mine with no inverter/battery/extra feed circuit? (The older burros have a breakered outlet as opposed to a small breaker box.)

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Old 09-12-2008, 09:29 AM   #28
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Pam, Thanks for trying to help. A couple of points I think you missed. Yes, I have read the Yamaha website and took a print out to the Service Center to make my points.

BTW: For the cost of that Fluke, I could be well on my way to buying a Honda EU2000i.

Fluke 360, LEAKAGE CURRENT CLAMP METER $642.99 [b]OUCH!

My Trailer has a [b]11,000 BTU Air Conditioner. Yamaha says on their website the EF24000i will [b]EASILY run a 13,500 BTU air conditioner. Also their specs state the generator will run a [b]750 watt microwave, which it doesn't.

The generator is suppose to be able to handle 3,000 watts surge and run at 2400 watts.

The generator is an Inverter generator. It does NOT run through the inverter.

Mike: I also own a 2400is Yamaha. The correct surge rating is 2400 watts with a continuous load rating of 2000 watts. The generator easily starts my Coleman 9200 btu roof unit and operates a Sharp Warm & Toasty oven at the same time. One excellent idea suggested in this subject area is to have the Yamaha service center utilize another 2400is for comparison. This would be an easy and logical approach to the issue. Keep us posted on the outcome please.
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