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01-23-2013, 02:55 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Adding a Brake Flange
The topic comes up periodically as to whether brake flanges can be added to an axle that did not come with them. Don and I were noodling alternative UHaul brake solutions and he forwarded me this eTrailer article.
Parts Needed to Add Electric Over Hydraulic Disc Brakes to a Trailer | etrailer.com
The part that caught my eye was this:
Quote:
You can purchase brake flanges and have a qualified welder weld them to the axle. When a brake mounting flange is welded to an axle, it must be welded square and concentric. This usually requires a jig to hold both parts in position. A trailer shop should have the equipment and personnel to weld brake mounting flanges to your axle.
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I'm not going to argue whether this is correct or not, but I thought that it was worth sharing.
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01-23-2013, 03:30 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Name: Michael J
Trailer: U-Haul VT
Indiana
Posts: 505
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Looks like all the pictures show leaf spring axles not torsion in which case I would likely agree that you could weld in that area and not cause any problems. Wouldn't try it on a torsion axle with the potential of damaging the rubber.
My 2 cents.
Michael J.
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01-23-2013, 03:40 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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This sketch shows how near the area to be welded on the spindle is to the rubber.
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01-23-2013, 04:04 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Name: Michael J
Trailer: U-Haul VT
Indiana
Posts: 505
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ok Tom where in your original link to e trailer does it direct one to the torsion picture?
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01-23-2013, 04:11 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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I pulled this sketch off Goggle images to show where the flange welding location is relative to the rubber. I've done a fair amount of oxy-acetelyne and arc welding. I would be confident that I could arc weld the flange onto the spindle without heating up the rubber components.
If you have different experience, that's fine.
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01-23-2013, 04:29 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: Scamp 13
California
Posts: 1,890
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If I wanted to add brake flanges I would get or make some flanges and mount them to a complete backing plate brake set-up. get a hub with drum and bearings and install the backing plate in the drum and install the complete assembly onto the spindle and line it up. then activate the electric brake and rotate the hub to expand and center the brake shoes and tack the plate in place with a welder. then remove the whole assembly except the tacked in brake flange. then I would arc weld it in permanately. I would weld it in a couple of stitches at a time and let it cool between the stitches. Just let it cool naturally dont force cool it. It would be much easier if you had someone working with you as you dont want to energize the electric brake too long.
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01-23-2013, 05:05 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Trillium 4500 - 1976, 1978, 1979, 1300 - 1977, and a 1973
Alberta
Posts: 6,926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaz
It would be much easier if you had someone working with you as you dont want to energize the electric brake too long.
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This can be done with a wire inserted between the +12VDC and the brake contacts on the trailer plug. This assumes that there is a battery in the trailer. Or you could just pull the break away switch.
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01-23-2013, 05:46 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Name: Ron
Trailer: 2008 13' Scamp
British Columbia
Posts: 325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
. I've done a fair amount of oxy-acetelyne and arc welding. I would be confident that I could arc weld the flange onto the spindle without heating up the rubber components.
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Ditto, except I pretty much TIG everything now. I think for any experienced welder it's a non-issue. The arm itself is quite a heat sink. If I was doing it I'd wrap a wet rag around it to even further reduce any chance of damaging heat transfer.
As mentioned, mounting the plate so it's concentric is important, but again, not rocket science.
Ron
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01-24-2013, 04:33 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tilston
This can be done with a wire inserted between the +12VDC and the brake contacts on the trailer plug. This assumes that there is a battery in the trailer. Or you could just pull the break away switch.
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Actually, one could adjust the brake star wheel until it was locked.
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01-24-2013, 09:00 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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The readily available brake flanges are sized to fix over the axle tube of a straight axle (not a rubber torsion independent unit, not a drop-beam axle). To add one to a Torflex, there is no such tube and the hole in the plate would not likely match the size of the base of the spindle (unless Dexter sells one for this purpose, or it is custom fabricated), so it would need to be welded to the face of the arm surrounding the spindle. The arm does not likely have a large and accurately machined surface; that face also seems unlikely to be at the correct axial position (place along the spindle axis) to place the brake backing plate so the shoes line up with the drum.
Even if everything miraculously lines up, a technique like that suggested by Steve would be necessary for alignment if a common flange for straight tube axles were used.
This is one reason to always buy axles with brakes or at least the brake flange, even if the brakes are not needed immediately.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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01-24-2013, 10:38 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Trillium 4500 - 1976, 1978, 1979, 1300 - 1977, and a 1973
Alberta
Posts: 6,926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
Actually, one could adjust the brake star wheel until it was locked.
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Tom, do you mean the adjuster wheel on the brake controller? I was kinda assuming that the trailer was not connected to a tow vehicle.
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01-24-2013, 10:51 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
The readily available brake flanges are sized to fix over the axle tube of a straight axle (not a rubber torsion independent unit, not a drop-beam axle). To add one to a Torflex, there is no such tube and the hole in the plate would not likely match the size of the base of the spindle (unless Dexter sells one for this purpose, or it is custom fabricated), so it would need to be welded to the face of the arm surrounding the spindle. The arm does not likely have a large and accurately machined surface; that face also seems unlikely to be at the correct axial position (place along the spindle axis) to place the brake backing plate so the shoes line up with the drum.
Even if everything miraculously lines up, a technique like that suggested by Steve would be necessary for alignment if a common flange for straight tube axles were used.
This is one reason to always buy axles with brakes or at least the brake flange, even if the brakes are not needed immediately.
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This is an interesting point. I know that Dexter torsion axles, for example come with or without brake flanges and can be ordered with brake flanges and an idler hub. If I was designing the spindle, I'd make both types identical except for the brake flange either being welded on the spindle or not.
In my experience, accurately positioning something like this flange would not be difficult with some simple fixturing. YMMV
Edit to add: To clarify, I don't believe the brake flange is attached to the arm, but rather is attached to the spindle, just past the land that the grease seal rides on.
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01-24-2013, 10:53 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tilston
Tom, do you mean the adjuster wheel on the brake controller? I was kinda assuming that the trailer was not connected to a tow vehicle.
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No the adjuster that is at the bottom of the brake backing plate. (Hydraulic brake shown, but adjuster is the same)
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01-24-2013, 10:01 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
I know that Dexter torsion axles, for example come with or without brake flanges and can be ordered with brake flanges and an idler hub. If I was designing the spindle, I'd make both types identical except for the brake flange either being welded on the spindle or not.
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That makes sense, but UCF builds their Flexiride "rubber torsion" suspension arms with the brake mounting flange integrally cast as part of the arm... there are design choices here so assumptions are dangerous.
See UCF's Flexiride 3500 axle leaflet for an illustration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
To clarify, I don't believe the brake flange is attached to the arm, but rather is attached to the spindle, just past the land that the grease seal rides on.
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Excellent info, Tom. : The normally informative Dexter Axle site doesn't clearly show a flange-equipped Torflex that I could find.
This means that a flange could be added to the spindle, but readily available flanges for adding to beam axles will still have the wrong size hole to fit the spindle (unless a Torflex spindle in our sizes has a huge diameter). Also, these axles come with regular and long spindles, so length should be checked for enough room to add the flange in the right position.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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01-25-2013, 07:42 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
That makes sense, but UCF builds their Flexiride "rubber torsion" suspension arms with the brake mounting flange integrally cast as part of the arm... there are design choices here so assumptions are dangerous.
See UCF's Flexiride 3500 axle leaflet for an illustration.
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Clearly, this is correct for the Flexiride. As the arms are replaceable, one could add new arms with flanges to avoid replacing the whole axle assembly, though it appears that the flanges may be standard.
Quote:
Excellent info, Tom. : The normally informative Dexter Axle site doesn't clearly show a flange-equipped Torflex that I could find.
This means that a flange could be added to the spindle, but readily available flanges for adding to beam axles will still have the wrong size hole to fit the spindle (unless a Torflex spindle in our sizes has a huge diameter). Also, these axles come with regular and long spindles, so length should be checked for enough room to add the flange in the right position.
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I looked at the Scamp owners manual (an excellent piece of work by the way). They show grease seal inner diameters of 1.5" and 1.719". As the brake flange sits on the next larger diameter, the ID of the brake flange needs to be bigger, but I was unable to find the diameter of this portion of the spindle. The readily available flanges I found had inner diameters of 1.64",1.69",1.75" and 2.27".
This would be an easy part to fabricate (a 1/4" plate with 5 holes) but it would be nice if the parts were available off the shelf. Surely they are mass produced to meet the OEM demand.
If anyone has a Dexter axle and could measure the diameter of the spindle where the brake flange attaches, it would be nice to add it to this discussion for future reference.
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01-25-2013, 09:21 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
The readily available flanges I found had inner diameters of 1.64",1.69",1.75" and 2.27".
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Good stuff :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
This would be an easy part to fabricate (a 1/4" plate with 5 holes) but it would be nice if the parts were available off the shelf. Surely they are mass produced to meet the OEM demand.
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Yes, Dexter must have them; unfortunately that doesn't mean they are added by anyone ex-factory, or that they are available at retail. Cross your fingers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
If anyone has a Dexter axle and could measure the diameter of the spindle where the brake flange attaches, it would be nice to add it to this discussion for future reference.
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Yes! Real information is good.
This helpful person could also check the length of the spindle.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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01-25-2013, 09:33 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Name: Jared
Trailer: 1984 19' scamp
Kansas
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
I pulled this sketch off Goggle images to show where the flange welding location is relative to the rubber. I've done a fair amount of oxy-acetelyne and arc welding. I would be confident that I could arc weld the flange onto the spindle without heating up the rubber components.
If you have different experience, that's fine.
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I've put them on. A spindle shouldn't be heated that much anyway, so I wouldn't worry about the rubber, myself. I just stitch weld it with long breaks in between.
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01-25-2013, 01:22 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
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The brake flanges would seem to be a lot further from the rubber than the axle mounting brackets and a lot of those have been welded to frames for a lot of years.
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01-27-2013, 11:04 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Name: Michael J
Trailer: U-Haul VT
Indiana
Posts: 505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
I pulled this sketch off Goggle images to show where the flange welding location is relative to the rubber. I've done a fair amount of oxy-acetelyne and arc welding. I would be confident that I could arc weld the flange onto the spindle without heating up the rubber components.
If you have different experience, that's fine.
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Snow finally melted and I crawled under the Vt, after looking at it I agree there is a lot of mass to absorb the heat before it gets to the rubber. so I herby refute my previous comment.
michael j.
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01-27-2013, 03:30 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmeyer
Snow finally melted and I crawled under the Vt, after looking at it I agree there is a lot of mass to absorb the heat before it gets to the rubber. so I herby refute my previous comment.
michael j.
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Thanks for the follow up , Michael.
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