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12-21-2013, 10:28 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian G.
Larger brakes are able to stop more weight. The basic principle of brakes is they convert motion energy (trailer wheel moving) into kinetic energy (or heat) (think back to high school physics and the laws of physics). Larger brakes have 2 factors that increase braking; 1) the larger brake drum and brake shoes result in a larger friction area or contact area between the inner surface of the drum and the friction lining on the brake shoe; and 2) the larger diameter drum is able to exert move leverage on the rotating wheel.
3500 lb axles usually come with 10" brakes
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Kinetic energy is motion energy... which is converted (through friction in this case) to heat, which is produced when the brakes are applied.
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12-21-2013, 11:03 AM
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#22
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Commercial Member
Name: Ian
Trailer: 1974 Boler 1300 - 2014 Escape 19'
Alberta
Posts: 1,380
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oops, Thanks for the correction Floyd. High Schools was a looong time ago
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12-21-2013, 12:17 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1972 Boler American and 1979 Trillium 4500
Posts: 5,137
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Keep in mind the manufacturers recommended start angles:
Dexter = 10 down
Flexride = 24 down.
Both provide charts so you can determine your ride height for the spindle center. You have to factor in your tire size to get your final ride height.
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12-21-2013, 12:24 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian G.
3500 lb axles usually come with 10" brakes
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Didn't realize there're stock brakes per axle size, or I guess I could have answered my own question!
OEM axle on the first-gen 4500 is/was a "Rub-R-Ride" 2200 pounder. I guess that would be equivalent to the present Dexter #9, which comes with 7" brakes.
We did a whole-wheel replacement some time ago due to grease-caused contamination-destruction of the brakes. As I recall we just replaced in-kind. All this by way of saying that I'm pretty sure they must be 7" and they lock up just fine when called for.
Only problem I've ever had stopping was during a panic stop one time when a stop sign appeared out of nowhere .
Goin' thirty miles an hour and stomped on the brakes- they locked up, all right, but momentum carried 'er far enough that I wore bald spots on both tires.
Car tires saved by that newfangled ABS thing, I guess....
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12-21-2013, 03:05 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1972 Boler American and 1979 Trillium 4500
Posts: 5,137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Only problem I've ever had stopping was during a panic stop one time when a stop sign appeared out of nowhere .
Goin' thirty miles an hour and stomped on the brakes- they locked up, all right, but momentum carried 'er far enough that I wore bald spots on both tires.
Car tires saved by that newfangled ABS thing, I guess....
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? how far did you skid?
Does not sound logical for a 30MPH sudden stop unless your brakes have been locking the tires up in the same place repeatedly.
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12-21-2013, 03:45 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy in TO
? how far did you skid?
Does not sound logical for a 30MPH sudden stop unless your brakes have been locking the tires up in the same place repeatedly.
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Well...I might have been going a little faster- but since I post here in my real name I'm stickin' with the "30 mph" story...
Definite skid marks on the road... maybe thirty-forty feet long? The car didn't lock up, so marks had to be from trailer. Per actual distance: I didn't look real close since hanging around waiting for Barney Fife to show up and ticket me for running the stop sign seemed like a bad idea!
I didn't even examine the tires until later- calling the wear "bald spots" is probably a stretch. There was still plenty of tread left, but I could see matching wear spots when I checked 'em out later on.
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12-22-2013, 10:01 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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I tried to help a friend set up their brakes on a 13' trailer after replacing the brake pads last year. I also noticed a big difference of feel of the smaller brake size vs what I am use to on my 16' trailer with bigger brakes. I know that had I crank up my controller to the same level (to max) and had the boost on as we had on the 13' trailer that on my 16' had I simple pulled the lever on my controller & not touched the tug brakes I would have felt the trailer seriously trying to stop/jerk back the tug & the trailer would have been hopping like a bunny rabbit..... that didnt happen with the 13' trailer and its smaller brakes - yes I felt the brakes came on it but it was a much gentler feel in the tug - I didnt get the very distinct feeling that the trailer brakes were trying/could stop the tug all on their own as it feels with the larger brakes and the controller is set to high.
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12-22-2013, 10:15 AM
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#28
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Commercial Member
Name: Ian
Trailer: 1974 Boler 1300 - 2014 Escape 19'
Alberta
Posts: 1,380
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This is true Carol, but new brake shoes will take a while to break in, that is wear to the point where they make 100% contact with the brake drum. Think of it as the brake drum is a set diameter, the brake shoes are another diameter, although they will be close new shoes will either just contact at the leading and trailing edge of the shoe or just the center point until they wear and match.
On the 7" brakes on my Boler I can lock up the wheels, but the 10" brakes on my Casita definitely have more stopping power.
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12-22-2013, 11:49 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian G.
This is true Carol, but new brake shoes will take a while to break in, that is wear to the point where they make 100% contact with the brake drum.
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In this situation they had been pulling the trailer with the new brakes on a number of trips before they asked for help with adjusting them. I believe at the end of the day it came down to the fact they had a larger trailer in the past and were expecting a very different feel than what they got with the smaller brakes. No amount of adjusting the brakes at the trailer wheel seemed to change that.
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12-24-2013, 12:55 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Trillium 4500 - 1976, 1978, 1979, 1300 - 1977, and a 1973
Alberta
Posts: 6,926
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When I purchased my first 4500, it had a 2000# axle, and 7" brakes. The trailer was loaded with camping gear, so it was probably close to 2000#. I had no idea how to set up my break controller. The trailer locked up at every stop sign.
I had a 3500# axle, with 10" brakes put on. I also learned to set up the break controller. When I hit the breaks now, they seem less likely to lock up, but they seem to provide more braking. Going down the hill into Osoyoos, BC, we locked up for the only time the whole trip. Not sure why, but going down hill, our P2 controller seems to brake harder.
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12-24-2013, 02:28 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Just to be clear, David:
My posts re. brakes locking up were in response to Floyd's post below, indicating that the 7" brakes on his Scamp would not do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
10" brakes stop the trailer. 7" brakes slow the trailer and pretend to stop it.
7" brakes on a Scamp 13 give a nice comfy assist, but will not lock up when applied separately even at 10mph.
If I ever change my axle, it will get larger brakes.
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I never had trouble adjusting my controller...braking has always been smooth and adequate to the situation. My only point was that at least in the case of my 4500, the 7" brakes themselves do everything they should do including locking up when called for.
In my case at least, it's hard to see just how/if 10" brakes would provide any better performance....unless combined with bigger tires, advantage there being provided by larger contact patch with the road.
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12-24-2013, 05:30 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Trillium 4500 - 1976, 1978, 1979, 1300 - 1977, and a 1973
Alberta
Posts: 6,926
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Franchsca,
I was agreeing with you. My point was that locking up my 4500, with 7" brakes was quite possible. Sorry if I was unclear.
It does seem to me though, that the 10" brakes provide slightly better control, before lockup.
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12-28-2013, 07:16 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Just to be clear, David:
My posts re. brakes locking up were in response to Floyd's post below, indicating that the 7" brakes on his Scamp would not do so.
I never had trouble adjusting my controller...braking has always been smooth and adequate to the situation. My only point was that at least in the case of my 4500, the 7" brakes themselves do everything they should do including locking up when called for.
In my case at least, it's hard to see just how/if 10" brakes would provide any better performance....unless combined with bigger tires, advantage there being provided by larger contact patch with the road.
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Your 7" brakes will lock up at 10mph. Yours is the first report I have heard of them doing so.
In my original post, I wasn't referring to my trailer specifically, I was refering to ten years of experience and reports from other owners.
I must make the point that I was refering to braking on dry pavement and not Ice or gravel.
The 7" brakes on my Scamp have worked well without lockup, like yours they are adequate for the task at hand, but 10" brakes would brake a lot more effectively than 7s, especially at speed.
I have worked on several 16 Scamps where lockup at every stop was a problem with just an over sensitive controller setting. I have never seen the problem on a trailer with 7" brakes.
Maybe the Trillium's "Odie Complex" could actually account for the difference?
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12-28-2013, 08:58 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
....snip....
I have worked on several 16 Scamps where lockup at every stop was a problem with just an over sensitive controller setting. I have never seen the problem on a trailer with 7" brakes.
Maybe the Trillium's "Odie Complex" could actually account for the difference?
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Fer cryin' out loud, Floyd- yer confusin' the heck out of me! I read your "won't lock up" post (below) as a negative- but now you seem to be saying just the opposite-?
Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
7" brakes on a Scamp 13 give a nice comfy assist, but will not lock up when applied separately even at 10mph.
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__________________
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01-03-2014, 04:11 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Fer cryin' out loud, Floyd- yer confusin' the heck out of me! I read your "won't lock up" post (below) as a negative- but now you seem to be saying just the opposite-?
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The 16s to which I refer are ones which were set so aggressively that they woud lock-up with only light pedal pressure at every stop. A simple brake controller adjustment is usually all that is needed.
"A nice comfy assist" is really all I need, but it would be nice to have a little impending lock-up at the bottom of the pedal.
Now that ABS is required by bureaucrats on TVs built after 2007, lock-up could actually be a liability on a trailer, but a good brake controller can handle that, and 10" brakes will provide more stopping power than 7s.
The lack of lock-up on 7" brakes mentioned in my first post was really more of an observation than a criticism.
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01-03-2014, 04:50 PM
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#36
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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It might be worth checking on or getting feedback on ready availability of replacement brake/axle parts for the axle you are having installed. Don't know if it is an issue in this case but my 4 bolt 7 inch drums are uncommon enough I may end up traveling with a spare because I know they will not be an in-stock item.
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