Battery maintenance - Fiberglass RV
Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-30-2013, 03:14 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Battery maintenance

I have read HandyBob and understand what he is about.

The RV Battery Charging Puzzle « HandyBob's Blog

It seems that vitriol aside, he is pretty well educated on the subject.

I found this by a manufacturer of AGM batteries which pretty much backs up HB's information.

http://www.energy1batteries.com/Tech...cteristics.pdf

And this which points out that our built-in chargers don't work very well:

Charge Wizard RV Battery Charging and Battery Monitoring Products from Progressive Dynamics

Notice that this "wizard", which you have to pay extra for, simply times these things.

No wonder ole Bob is so vitriolic.

And the PD4045 found in the Scamp is even worse, NEVER doing any true "Boost mode". I found this true by simply monitoring the voltage on my brand new golf cart batteries as I initially plugged in the PD4045 to AC. It went straight to 13.6v.

Sigh.

Which means I am already damaging my batteries by failing to ever charge them to "full". Notice that PD specifically states that "The Charge Wizard has been shown to increase the battery life by 2 to 3 times or more.", IOW that their other chargers will damage our batteries.

Don't ya just love an honest manufacturer.

Of course increasing the battery life, of a battery being damaged by incorrect charging, by a factor of 2 or 3 is somewhat unimpressive.

Notice that the PDF from the AGM manufacturer specifically states that the charge voltage duration needs to be programmable. And the PD "wizard" is not.

I have never seen this subject discussed on this board. Lots of "just use the PD4045", which seems like really bad advice. I have one and want to find a solution that will really work.

I intend to go get some solar panels and a true programmable charge controller, but the problem is that does nothing for the plugged in to AC state "sitting in the shade" which is my normal position at the camp host spot at the campground. The solar panels will likely never really charge things up, though one never knows.

AFAIK none of the programmable charge controllers for use with solar arrays will accept AC and use that to CREATE DC to feed to the batteries. And none of the AC powered chargers (that I have found) are programmable.

So what's a guy to do? And why, in 2013, are we buying brand new Scamps from the factory with PD4045 charge controllers guaranteed by the manufacturer Progressive Dynamics to damage our batteries?

I would love to discuss options in a non-confrontational manner because I want to be able to unhook from AC power and expect my costly golf cart batteries to be fully charged and undamaged, ready to provide me with 110 AH of power.
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 03:44 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Brian B-P's Avatar
 
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
Gee, the batteries in my large fifth-wheel (two parallel 12V, maybe group 27 size) and my motorhome (two series 6V, similar size) all seem to be working fine after a few years of living on Progressive Dynamics converter/chargers. When I'm in them and using power, I can see the mode changes in the brightness of the lights and the speed of the furnace fan - they're not just sitting on maintenance mode. The trailer has a Charge Wizard accessory; the motorhome has the same functionality built in. They are the 60-amp model, which works the same way as the 45-amp model.

From my reading of these discussions, the issue with the PD charger seems to be with some specific AGM batteries.

I'm surprised a Scamp doesn't come with something cheaper than the PD9245; this is pretty radical technology for them.


What about my Boler? That one has no onboard charger at all (just charges from the tug or at home on a portable charger), so it doesn't help this discussion.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 03:48 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Ed Harris's Avatar
 
Trailer: 1982 Fiber Stream and 2001 Casita Spirit Deluxe (I'm down to 2!)
Posts: 1,989
I think you will find,as you likely already know that it is just about the money.

The standard RV converter has ac and dc power distribution,battery charging and power supply duties all in one box.
That is a big job and as with many things in the RV world adequate performance at low cost seems to trump high performance every time.

I look to the Marine environment where the stakes are a lot higher and the performance is more critical in general and the breadth of better designed options is much bigger.
The operating voltages are the same but the battery banks often bigger and more expensive and there is a lot more variety there and most is well proven too.

I use Xantrex chargers mostly.
I also have some Guest chargers and look forward to getting something like this:

Pro Mariner Pro Nautic 1230P 30 Amp 3 Bank Battery Charger

Which has different charging profiles for different battery types.

Many chargers can also operate as power supplies which is essentially what the converter is.

There is a lot of good info on this site too and understanding battery systems can seem confusing until you research things a while.
Ed Harris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 03:51 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Carol H's Avatar
 
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
Registry
John, you may have already read/seen it but The 12 volt Side of Life does talk about the pros and cons of various set ups.
Carol H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 04:05 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
I agree with Brian. We had a PD converter with a Charge Wizard on our motorhome charging two 6 volt Trojan 105s. The batteries were 14 years old when we sold the motorhome and were working just fine.

Before LEDs, you would see the lights visibly brighten when the converter jumped to a measured 14.4 volts as directed by the Charge Wizard. I will say except when boondocking, the batteries were always on the converter even when idling for the summer in NH.

The converter also charged the Bounder's truck battery, a less sturdy battery. We replaced the first truck battery after 8 years after it 'jumped' off it's mounting tray while coming down the Chaco Canyon road.

I consider 14 years to be worth the charge wizard and justification for installation in our Scamp while upgrading.
__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 04:28 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Harris View Post
The standard RV converter has ac and dc power distribution,battery charging and power supply duties all in one box.
That is a big job and as with many things in the RV world adequate performance at low cost seems to trump high performance every time.
I guess my quibble is with the definition of 'adequate'. When the manufacturer selling you the 'wizard' is telling you that if you don't buy the wizard then their charger will damage your batteries...

Read their own 'wizard' literature carefully.

Apparently charging at 13.6 volts will never fully charge the battery, or even come close. AFAICT the charger in my scamp maxes at 13.6 v. And fixing the problem is a simple matter of raising the bulk charge voltage.
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 04:44 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Ed Harris's Avatar
 
Trailer: 1982 Fiber Stream and 2001 Casita Spirit Deluxe (I'm down to 2!)
Posts: 1,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
I guess my quibble is with the definition of 'adequate'. When the manufacturer selling you the 'wizard' is telling you that if you don't buy the wizard then their charger will damage your batteries...

Read their own 'wizard' literature carefully.

Apparently charging at 13.6 volts will never fully charge the battery, or even come close. AFAICT the charger in my scamp maxes at 13.6 v. And fixing the problem is a simple matter of raising the bulk charge voltage.
I agree really.

The mindset that tells you the "Wizard" is essential also somehow sells the units without them?

Sort of hard for me to trust anything they say?
Ed Harris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 04:46 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Norm, 'working just fine' has a specific definition. If I buy golf cart batteries rated at 220 ah then 'working just fine' means getting 110 ah out of them before reaching 1/2 discharge state. Anything less is by definition NOT working just fine. HB is correct in that it takes charging at the manufacturer's rated charge voltages to correctly charge a battery. The battery type is really irrelevant.

So when you say they 'worked just fine' i assume you mean they provided enough power for your requirements. That definition 'works' (for you) but it doesn't mean that the batteries were performing at their full capabilities.
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 06:14 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
John,

Running fine to me means meeting the needs of a boondocking motorhome. I do recognize that having a 3300 watt generator that ran for short periods every day is different from trailer boondocking.

I can say the quiescent current draw of a boondocking motorhome is significant: non Led Lamps, control boards on everything, TV/Sat dish amplifier, 400 watt inverter for running TV, charging phones and computers, propane detector, CO detector, running propane heater fan.

The batteries easily supplied our needs backed up with the ability to run the generator each day to recharge. To me that's what I define as working fine. Meeting our needs means the batteries easily met the requirements of boondocking in the motorhome for some 14 years averaging 7 months a year on the road and never needed to be replaced...just add distlled water.

In the third year of the batteries' life we discharged the batteries well below 50% and they recoverd just fine and were used for 11 more years. Did they always have 100% charge? I really don't know but I do know they did the job.

I don't know what charge voltage you require but the 14.4 volts seems to be adequate for Trojan 105s.
__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 07:37 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Trailer: Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 1,861
John
I thought Scamp was now installing PD-9130s. That's what my 2011 S-16 has and I think that's what the literature says they are installing. The PD-9130 is a single voltage charger. I had to buy the $25 charge wizard pendant to make my PD-9130 a 4 stage smart charger. Are you sure you have a PD4045.
Eddie
Just checked, The PD-9130 is what they sell in their parts store.
Eddie Longest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 07:59 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Norm,

Here is what Trojan says.

Trojan Battery Company


Notice that it does not say 14.4 is "adequate" for flooded cell batteries.

The following discusses maintenance.

Trojan Battery Company

It has an interesting chart at the bottom that discusses the charge state at specific voltages.

My point is that MY charger, in MY Scamp does not EVER charge at even 14.4 volts, never mind the 14.8 recommended.

I disconnected the AC and left 3 LEDs running for a couple of hours. Then waited several hours, then measured and my batteries were at 12.65 V. Pretty good right?

Wellll... how about roughly 90% After a drain of .6 amps for three hours? 1.8 ah drain on a 220 ah battery leaves me with 90%? I have been plugged in for two months!

I will admit this is very unscientific (before I read this page) and I will be doing more testing using their recommendations. My point though is that MY charger simply has NO adjust-ability and apparently seems destined to ruin my batteries if I don't do something.

So apparently I go buy a new charger, throw away the one I already paid for, and do a lot of work swapping out.

So with all due respect Norm, "did the job" is just about meaningless. Did "a" job, "provided some power for awhile", backed up by the ability to fire up the generator...

We have no idea whether you fired up the generator twice as often as you really should have had to, if you see what I mean.

And I hope you will pardon me if I don't jump right on buying another unit from PD who admits right in their wizard advertisement that I have to buy their add on wizard or their own unit will not do an adequate job and will probably ruin my batteries.

Even WITH the wizard we are in trouble.

From their literature:

"The addition of the Charge Wizard makes your 9100 Series converter an intelligent battery charger that will safely and rapidly recharge a discharged battery by selecting the Boost Mode (14.4V) of operation. Once the battery reaches 90% of full charge, the Charge Wizard automatically selects the Normal Mode (13.6V) to safely complete the charge."

Notice that their "boost mode" is only 14.4 volts, NOT the Trojan recommendation of 14.8V. Notice that their "normal mode" is 13.6V when the Trojan chart says that a 100% charged battery needs to be 13.73V. How exactly is 13.6v applied to the battery EVER going to "finish" charging it to 13.73 volts?

I've been in electronics for 30 years and there's something fishy here. Actually nothing fishy, PD has simply implemented a "close enough for government work" solution IF you buy the charge wizard.

And so I am looking for a discussion of equipment that really implements the battery manufacturers' charging recommendations. This board has amazing expertise and I am hoping to get that flowing.
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:07 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Eddie, not sure. My new to me Scamp is a 2009 and I thought I had the older one. I will look at my manual again. Am I supposed to feel better that Scamp now sells a single stage that you can spend an extra $25 to get a 4 stage that still does not do the right job?
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:13 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Carol H's Avatar
 
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
Norm,

I disconnected the AC and left 3 LEDs running for a couple of hours. Then waited several hours, then measured and my batteries were at 12.65 V. Pretty good right?
Not to me ;-) my question would be what was the resting reading on your battery prior to running that test? Is this battery new or just new to you and any chance its been run down to below 11.9 a few times before you got it.... in which case it will drain a lot faster than a well maintained battery.

I hear you though in regards to smart charges vs not so smart charges.
Carol H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:23 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Byron Kinnaman's Avatar
 
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
Norm,

Here is what Trojan says.

Trojan Battery Company


Notice that it does not say 14.4 is "adequate" for flooded cell batteries.

The following discusses maintenance.

Trojan Battery Company

It has an interesting chart at the bottom that discusses the charge state at specific voltages.

My point is that MY charger, in MY Scamp does not EVER charge at even 14.4 volts, never mind the 14.8 recommended.

I disconnected the AC and left 3 LEDs running for a couple of hours. Then waited several hours, then measured and my batteries were at 12.65 V. Pretty good right?

Wellll... how about roughly 90% After a drain of .6 amps for three hours? 1.8 ah drain on a 220 ah battery leaves me with 90%? I have been plugged in for two months!

I will admit this is very unscientific (before I read this page) and I will be doing more testing using their recommendations. My point though is that MY charger simply has NO adjust-ability and apparently seems destined to ruin my batteries if I don't do something.

So apparently I go buy a new charger, throw away the one I already paid for, and do a lot of work swapping out.

So with all due respect Norm, "did the job" is just about meaningless. Did "a" job, "provided some power for awhile", backed up by the ability to fire up the generator...

We have no idea whether you fired up the generator twice as often as you really should have had to, if you see what I mean.

And I hope you will pardon me if I don't jump right on buying another unit from PD who admits right in their wizard advertisement that I have to buy their add on wizard or their own unit will not do an adequate job and will probably ruin my batteries.

Even WITH the wizard we are in trouble.

From their literature:

"The addition of the Charge Wizard makes your 9100 Series converter an intelligent battery charger that will safely and rapidly recharge a discharged battery by selecting the Boost Mode (14.4V) of operation. Once the battery reaches 90% of full charge, the Charge Wizard automatically selects the Normal Mode (13.6V) to safely complete the charge."

Notice that their "boost mode" is only 14.4 volts, NOT the Trojan recommendation of 14.8V. Notice that their "normal mode" is 13.6V when the Trojan chart says that a 100% charged battery needs to be 13.73V. How exactly is 13.6v applied to the battery EVER going to "finish" charging it to 13.73 volts?

I've been in electronics for 30 years and there's something fishy here. Actually nothing fishy, PD has simply implemented a "close enough for government work" solution IF you buy the charge wizard.

And so I am looking for a discussion of equipment that really implements the battery manufacturers' charging recommendations. This board has amazing expertise and I am hoping to get that flowing.

Question for you.
You're quoting readings to 2 decimal points. When was the last time that meter was calibrated? How accurate is it?

Actually I think you're tying to split hairs.

FYI I retried from the electronic as EE after 45 years. I don't worry about actual charge voltages of my battery. My battery gets charge one of three ways, from a Battery Minder, A solar panel, or my Dodge Dakota 4.7l magnum, with tow package. Batteries are cheap enough that's it's no big deal to replace it every 5 or 7 years.
Fuss less camp more.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
Byron Kinnaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:26 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
I bought the trailer the beginning of August and it had no battery so I decided to go with golf cart 6v. I went to Sams club and bought two of theirs. I really should carefully run it down to 50% and then let my charger charge it from there.
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:32 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Trailer: Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 1,861
John
Check out this thread. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ase-58644.html Looks like Thom has covered a lot of the issues you are bringing up with his Parkliner batteries.
Eddie
Eddie Longest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:35 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Talking

Brian,

I am not trying to split hairs. I am trying to make sure that when I go camping I have the power I want and paid for.

If you bought tires and they are supposed to be rated to 3000 lbs at 60 lbs of pressure, but you can't get them aired up to 60 lbs then you have just paid for 3000 lbs of load rating but are actually getting less. AND if you accidentally load it to 3000 lbs (that IS what you paid for right?) and they aren't aired up to that you are damaging your tires.

Everyone understands that.

The same is true for my batteries. I paid for two 220ah batteries so that I could safely and repeatedly draw 110 ah out of them if I need to. Except I can't because the charger doesn't charge them all the way.

How do you call that splitting hairs?

I understand that perhaps you don't care, but that doesn't mean that no one should care, or that I am silly for asking for a charger that will not kill my batteries. I'll tell you what I will do though, I will send you the bill when I need to replace them. How about that?
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:51 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
We turn our generator on every day because we make coffee and toast in the morning not necessarily to charge the battery. I don't know the number of days before 50% discharge. You really get spoiled by a 3300 watt generator with electric start that runs off your 80 gallon fuel tank.

Generally when you have a system that works well, you don't spend much time investigating it. I don't fuss too much over what works well enough and certainly it did not destroy my batteries. Though I hadn't thought of it as boondocking yearly service meant the motorhome would sit unplugged for a week or two without power, with the power door being regularly operated. It never dropped too low.

(One stupid NH law is that all Motorhomes have to be inspected in the same month causing a backup at the better truck service centers during inspection month.)
__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:54 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Longest View Post
John
Check out this thread. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ase-58644.html Looks like Thom has covered a lot of the issues you are bringing up with his Parkliner batteries.
Eddie
Eddie, it looks like he never got the PD to work correctly which does not surprise me. Finding a programmable smart charger is my goal. I had already about concluded that none of the PDs were the answer. Anyone want to buy mine?
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 08:57 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Name: asdf
Trailer: asdf
Alabama
Posts: 346
Norm, I should have so much money!
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Deep cycle battery maintenance? jlbails Electrical | Charging, Systems, Solar and Generators 33 08-29-2013 08:28 AM
Maintenance Next Week Andy R General Chat 2 03-25-2010 03:31 PM
Maintenance Required? Art Davis General Chat 9 03-09-2008 04:17 PM
Bearing Maintenance Legacy Posts Care and Feeding of Molded Fiberglass Trailers 7 11-12-2002 06:08 AM

» Upcoming Events
No events scheduled in
the next 465 days.
» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.