Bolts (screws) vs. rivets in Scamp repair? - Fiberglass RV


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-17-2014, 09:54 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Timber Wolf's Avatar
 
Name: Tim
Trailer: '88 Scamp 16, layout 4
North Florida
Posts: 1,440
Bolts (screws) vs. rivets in Scamp repair?

I know this has been discussed, and rivets have been good enough all these years and etc., etc. But hear (read) me out. Recently, while doing an interweb search for stainless acorn nuts (for the interior of my Scamp) I found a nice online source of not only stainless acorn nuts, but stainless nuts, bolts, screws, and washers of every kind and description. One of the items they sell is a stainless “neoprene bonded” washer. This is a stainless steel washer with a piece of neoprene bonded to the underside. These washers have a diameter of ½” (.5 inch). They also have “truss head” stainless 10/32 (approximately 3/16” diameter) screws. The truss head is .43 inch across. These got me to thinking about an “upgrade” for holding the Scamp together.

It seems to me that the neoprene washer would give a coverage area approximately the same as the plastic cup on a rivet but with a lot better longevity. I am 54 years old, and while I may not want to be using the Scamp when new caps, cups, & washers are needed again, my daughter (11 years old) has already called dibs on the old Scamp and I don’t want her to have to mess with them either. Do it right (or better) once (more) I say and be done with it. The screws have an additional advantage that I can use a nice stainless washer inside to distribute the load on the interior fiberglass element being bolted to the shell. In fairness though, with a long enough rivet an additional washer could be used with a rivet as well.

This load-spreading is not to be dismissed lightly. I know the rivets & caps worked for 26 years, or somewhat less depending on when they actually started to fail. I don’t when they started to give up as I have only had the Scamp since April of this year, and by the caulk smeared over numerous rivets the caps/cups had been gone for some time. This trailer today is not the same unit that rolled out of Backus in 1988. Things have shifted, elements fatigued & sagged, fiberglass is cracking and degrading, holes have enlarged, etc. I tend to think that a new fastening system that can gently but firmly pull things together, and spread the load over a larger area is a very positive thing. In preference to the acorn nuts & thread locking sealant, I would use nylon locking nuts in non-exposed portions of the unit. The only way I can see this would not work is areas unaccessable to place and hold the nut.

It is certainly not the low-cost option, but just as certainly the labor is a much bigger concern than a few more bucks spent for potentially superior fasteners. I do not see a downside, unless one vastly preferred the white cap look over that of stainless steel screw heads on the outside of their Scamp.
__________________

__________________
Timber Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 10:34 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Name: Steve
Trailer: Scamp 13
California
Posts: 1,418
Your bolt system would work the only issues I see is the aesthetics of the bolt and washers (which I wouldn't like) and since the head of the bolt is exposed leakage between the bolt head down the shaft of the screw. Over time this will leak too. The one issue not addressed is since Scamp puts the cabinets in after the interior insulation materials you don't really tighten up to a solid structure. You have a gasket of insulating materials between the 2 fiberglass units that continue to loosen as the materials compress over time. Thus the bolts loosen just as the rivets do. Now you have a threaded shank acting as a file as everything racks going down the highway. If I were to adopt this system I would spin down the O.D. of the stainless insulated washers so the snap caps can snap over them covering the leak point. If you replace the snap cap tops before they turn to junk the stock bases would last much longer since they would not be exposed to sunlight. Every 2 to 3 years snap on some new tops and most of these issues go away.
I redid most of my rivets last year and all the tops. My 1986 Scamp which I bought almost 2 years ago looked to have no exterior maintenance since it was built. I used a Harbor Freight pneumatic rivet gun and that made the chore much nicer. Even though I bought several lengths of rivets I ended up cutting the majority of the rivet shanks to the proper length to work with the acorn nuts. Use a pair of wire strippers to cut down aluminium rivets. Pop out the shank and invert it in the rivet. cut down the rivet with the wire cutter and then pop out the shank again and put it back again the right way and set your rivet.
No one likes the look of snap caps they look like warts on a toad but at least they blend in and don't draw the eye to them.
__________________

__________________
stevebaz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 03:57 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Byron Kinnaman's Avatar
 
Name: Byron
Trailer: 2006 Scamp 13' towed with a 2005 Dodge Dakota 4.7l Magnum W/full tow package (over kill)
Oregon
Posts: 6,308
Registry
One thing to consider is the nuts bolts vs rivets debate. How many times have you seen a nut or bolt work loose? How many times have you seen a rivet work loose?

Just a thought.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
Byron Kinnaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 07:06 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 1,045
I was looking in a Fastenal store this week and saw some large head rivets (blind so that the water on the outside won't run through the middle of the rivet.
I have looked into stainless steel screws with countersunk heads and washers to seal the hole.
If you use #10 CSK aircraft SS screws the washers are available that are pretty flat and are nice and shiny if that is OK.
The beat for either would be to fill the hole with some epoxy and pull the rivet or install the screw.
I think I will use the large headed rivets and epoxy sealer and no plastic caps.
these are available in different metals and while stainless would be nice aluminum is OK. Etch the heads and paint them to match.

Here is a link to some 3/16 stainless large flange pop rivets:

http://www.nutsandbolts.com/316-x-12...50-p-3182.html

Screws:

http://www.nutsandbolts.com/1024-x-1...00-p-2674.html

Washers ( CSK )

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...esswashers.php

Note the screws on the nuts and bolts site are 82 degree and the washers are 100 degree aircraft. Best would be:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MW9YV2/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Nuts:

http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Stee.../dp/B00AM0YUMW

The above just searched on google for examples except for the washers. The 100 degree "cowling" washers are harder to find.

Again I think the secret is in bedding the fastener in epoxy to seal.
I think the plastic cap will allow the fasteners to work and loosen.
The large head will spread the force over a larger area and the epoxy should serve to seal.
Either the rivet with the dome or the flat head scred and washer wull be lower profile than the caps. If the fasteners are scuffed and then painted to match the body color.
I plan to repaint my trailer since it was painted long ago and I have to fill in some openings I wont be using along with many holes that Also won't be used. These will be filled with fiber glass cloth and epoxy resin. Although originally the Scamp I am working on was (is) polyester resin.
__________________
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 08:38 PM   #5
Commercial Member
 
Ian G.'s Avatar
 
Name: Ian
Trailer: 1974 Boler 1300 - 2014 Escape 19'
Alberta
Posts: 1,304
Registry
I used all stainless steel button head fasteners (hex drive) with the neoprene bonded washers and SS lock nuts on my Boler. The washers work excellent.

Bought all at Fastenal
Ian G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 08:58 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
floyd's Avatar
 
Name: Floyd
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
IllAnnoy
Posts: 6,046
Registry
Your FrankenScamp idea is intriguing, but I still kinda like the idea of RED snapcaps so as to have "one measley little Scamp"!

Why not glue them together, like a model kit or about half the new cars?
__________________
floyd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 09:04 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
CampyTime's Avatar
 
Name: Wendy Lee
Trailer: Scamp 13' Standard
New York
Posts: 1,061
Registry
Here's my spin. I'm probably going to eat it over this one but I must be myself. I've done both: used a rivet gun after drilling out rivets to replace and also used washers bolts and nuts/locknuts. As a girl with teeny hands, albeit I'm tough and strong, I'd rather Daddy left me bolts and washers to replace if need be. A screwdriver or power drill sounds much better and is easier on the girl hands. Mine ached after riveting and I sure as hell ain't no girlie girl.

I think you've already talked yourself into what sounds smart to me so as a woman who never knew her father I say God Bless You and she's lucky to have your thoughtfulness and love. Go for it!


Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
__________________
CampyTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 09:18 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
floyd's Avatar
 
Name: Floyd
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
IllAnnoy
Posts: 6,046
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by CampyTime View Post
Here's my spin. I'm probably going to eat it over this one but I must be myself. I've done both: used a rivet gun after drilling out rivets to replace and also used washers bolts and nuts/locknuts. As a girl with teeny hands, albeit I'm tough and strong, I'd rather Daddy left me bolts and washers to replace if need be. A screwdriver or power drill sounds much better and is easier on the girl hands. Mine ached after riveting and I sure as hell ain't no girlie girl.

I think you've already talked yourself into what sounds smart to me so as a woman who never knew her father I say God Bless You and she's lucky to have your thoughtfulness and love. Go for it!


Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
They make power rivet guns!
Attached Thumbnails
71603-00105.jpg  
__________________
floyd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 09:27 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
CampyTime's Avatar
 
Name: Wendy Lee
Trailer: Scamp 13' Standard
New York
Posts: 1,061
Registry
Yes Floyd I am cognizant of air rivet guns but that requires money for an air compressor and the air rivet gun. I paid 20 bucks for my hand gun. I still say bless the man, and His heart is in the right place.


Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
__________________
CampyTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 09:47 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Perry J's Avatar
 
Name: John
Trailer: 16' Casita
California
Posts: 975
Send a message via AIM to Perry J Send a message via Yahoo to Perry J
I have refurbished and sold at least 12 Eggs over the last 9 years.
The biggest fiberglass repair problem I've had is where the rivets have been replaced with bolts.
Rivets allow the hull and interior partitions to FLEX.
Tight bolts don't and eventually fracture the fiberglass.

I have passed up what would have been 2very good buys if they hadn't had most of the rivets replaced with bolts.

Stop and think about how many very old Fiberglass trailers are still in good shape with rivets.
How many nailed and bolted stick built trailers last as long as Eggs????

I'm just finishing up an 82 13' Scamp.
I don't think they used snap cap back them so I replaced every rivet on the trailer.
Including the door, side windows and awning rail.
The awning rail was bolted on and did require some repair and removal of rust stains.
After 32 years all of the other rivets were replaced with no problems.

The ONLY time I had to use bolt is where the galley cabinet on a 13"Scamp had been bolted to the hull in 4 places.
The hull was fractured and the holes to large for rivets so I ended up using bolts acorn nuts and washers.
John
__________________
Perry J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 11:41 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
floyd's Avatar
 
Name: Floyd
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
IllAnnoy
Posts: 6,046
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by CampyTime View Post
Yes Floyd I am cognizant of air rivet guns but that requires money for an air compressor and the air rivet gun. I paid 20 bucks for my hand gun. I still say bless the man, and His heart is in the right place.


Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
Ahem! The one pictured is battery operated!
__________________
floyd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2014, 02:19 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Name: Frank
Trailer: Casita
California
Posts: 251
So what is the story on the 14.4 VDC rivet gun? Manufacture, Model number and Address to look (URL)
Frank F
__________________
Frank F
frankcfx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2014, 04:46 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
CampyTime's Avatar
 
Name: Wendy Lee
Trailer: Scamp 13' Standard
New York
Posts: 1,061
Registry
I looked into the battery operated rivet guns this past spring when I had lots of riveting to do and from what I saw many were in 700 - 1300 dollar range. If this had not been so, I certainly would have picked one up in short order! I think they're great but like pneumatic equipment, pricey for me on a single persons budget.


Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
__________________
CampyTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2014, 07:52 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Timber Wolf's Avatar
 
Name: Tim
Trailer: '88 Scamp 16, layout 4
North Florida
Posts: 1,440
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I am still on the fence but do like the idea of bolting. A few of the points brought up do give me pause or elicit a response. The cheese grater or saw affect may be real, I am not sure but will contemplate it. I do not think a properly (not over) tightened screw/bolt will hurt a FGRV any more than a rivet, especially with the cushioning effect of the neoprene washer. I am not sure about the supposed effect of a rivet allowing the trailer to flex, it just not make sense to me. It seems the only way that could be so is if the rivet is streaching, or wearing out the hole in the fiberglass. There is a certain amount of flex "built in" since the Scamp has the insulation and rat fur between everything.


As to sealing around the washer and screw, the neoprene is sized such that it is a tight fit around the screw and made to seal to it. Of course nothing says that a small dab of caulk could not be put under the screw head or on the threads to seal things even more. We have a Fastenal store here and it they have what I need I may buy a few and experiment with it on the top of my trailer. Those are the fasteners that really need attention on my Scamp and they will not show anyway.
__________________

__________________
Timber Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
scamp


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fantastic Fan - Scamp - Screws or Rivets? Carol H Problem Solving | Owners Helping Owners 25 05-18-2016 08:22 PM
Rivets or SS machine screws Dan L Modifications, Alterations and Updates 25 02-27-2013 07:52 AM
Nuts n' bolts instead of rivets? dylanear Modifications, Alterations and Updates 20 05-31-2012 02:57 PM
Butyl tape under flange, then rivets or screws, + sealant ??? Guy, Boulianne Problem Solving | Owners Helping Owners 7 06-29-2010 08:09 AM
screws or rivets Tim M Problem Solving | Owners Helping Owners 1 06-23-2008 01:28 PM

» Trailer Showcase

Lily

Lilytrilly

Ollie

kbingel
» Upcoming Events
No events scheduled in
the next 465 days.
» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.