Condensation and all propane

[Christian in FL]

Hi, a question for this who have all propane appliances in a small fgrv. I have a 13' Boler, planning a reno and considering a propane fridge and heater for boondocking. I already have a two burner propane stove inside. Anyone have a problem with condensation in a small space? I have heard of problems with this in tiny homes that are 2-3x bigger than my Boler. Of course I plan a gas detector for my safety.

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[Jon in AZ]

I believe propane fridges and forced-air RV furnaces isolate combustion from the cabin air, so they shouldn't contribute to condensation. Cooking on the stove, especially boiling, will, but, since use is intermittent, opening a vent or window should minimize the problem. The serious condensation problems I have read about involved use of catalytic-type heaters (like Wave heaters). Which type of heater were you thinking of installing?

[David Tilston]

Lisa, you are addressing two mostly unrelated issues. Condensation is going to be a problem on cold days. The colder the bigger the problem. If you are cooking, crack the ceiling vent. That should help. Condensation is not much of a problem anyway. Most of the materials on your trailer are synthetic and not prone to rot.

A gas detector is another thing, I have a hand held three gas detector. It measures carbon monoxide, (CO) propane, (LEL) and oxygen, (O2). Which gas do you want to detect?

[honda03842]

Breathing while sleeping with cold outside temperatures is the primary issue. We keep a shammy handy and wipe the windows near the bed in the morning.

Cooking's no so much of an issue because we just open the window over the stove and crack the vent.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Jon is correct that both the forced air furnace and the fridge have air intake and exhaust for combustion outside.
Condensation is another issue. I have solved the problem by keeping the inside at about 50°F when sleeping, yes on cold night the furnace does come on. The thermostat takes care of it. The air space inside any 13' trailer is small, therefore it is always best to have some sort of air circulation all the time. You can use up the oxygen quite easily. One of our members with just herself and two dogs used up enough of inside oxygen that the cook burners wouldn't light until she opened the vent.
We sleep with ceiling vent open a crack and there's a small window over the cook surface that we keep open a bit, even in 5°F weather. I like to wake up alive in the morning.

Any kind of catalytic heater will put a lot of moisture into the air and not all are vented to the outside.

[Christian in FL]

David T, I want to detect gases that will kill me, my dog and cat, while sleeping or awake. I was thinking CO or CO2

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[Byron Kinnaman]

Gas detectors in your trailer. CO (Carbon monoxide) Smoke detector, propane detector. Some add an low oxygen detector, if you keep things so there's always air coming in and going out the low oxygen detector might not be necessary. FYI I don't have one, but I air moving through the trailer.

CO2 is Carbon Dioxide, used in fire extinguishers and dry ice. You breath in Oxygen (O) breath out CO2.

[Cathi]

Lisa, you will have a condensation problem in cold weather even if you use no propane. It is from the cold and heat whether generated by an electric heater or propane heat. You need a window or two cracked and a vent above to help.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Lisa in FL

David T, I want to detect gases that will kill me, my dog and cat, while sleeping or awake. I was thinking CO or CO2

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As Byron pointed out the three gasses I mentioned can kill you. CO is likely the most dangerous. It is generated by incomplete combustion. But propane can blow you up, and a lack of oxygen is also bad.

[John Linck]

We leave the roof vent open every night, at least 2 inches, frequently more. It helps with condensation accumulation but that's still a problem on cold nights. I also believe an open vent helps keep odors from lingering in our Scamp. Two folks in such a small space do tend to concentrate smells. I like to move them out. Our roof vent is only closed when towing.

During our 60 day February/March SW trip we used two tanks of propane, maybe $28.00 mostly to keep the frig cold. The open vent may have cost 3 or 4 of that in extra furnace duty, but it seems worth it. We slept at 55-60 degrees under a down quilt with nighttime temps near freezing most of this trip.

Happy Camping, john

[Hazel in Sk]

We have never noticed any condensation in our Trillium. We keep the roof vent cracked open (or wide open in warmer weather) plus opening a window a wee bit. The furnace and fridge are propane. Maybe the trick is ventilation? We prefer an extra blankie to more added heat.

[Donna D.]

Condensation will happen when there's a difference between the outside temperature and the inside temperature. Sleeping under warm covers and vents cracked open balances the temperature. Turn up the furnace when you get up in the morning. And remember, when you boil water for the pasta dish or perk coffee on the stove... you're adding water to the inside of the trailer.

[mbbear]

Hi John, Michael here from VA. I'm a relatively new to the group. I hope to do a winter sw trip as well, and I'm wondering if you guys were boondocking or primarily were hooked up? The heart of my question is that I've read that running the furnace will kill your battery quickly and I'm wondering how you dealt with this? Thanks!

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by mbbear

Hi John, Michael here from VA. I'm a relatively new to the group. I hope to do a winter sw trip as well, and I'm wondering if you guys were boondocking or primarily were hooked up? The heart of my question is that I've read that running the furnace will kill your battery quickly and I'm wondering how you dealt with this? Thanks!

We have spent 3 months (Jan, Feb, and Mar) in the SW for the past 5 years. No hookups. Quickly is a relative term, so I'll tell you how my battery lasts when using the furnace. The coldest temperature was in TX when it got down to 5°F for a couple days. Was in the teens for few days also. I ran out of battery on the 4th day of such cold.
There are several methods to keep from running out of battery. The furnace draws some current, but not as much as you might think. The need to use the furnace is a lot less in the SW that in the NE.
The first thing I did was replace all the lights with LED lights. Incandescent lights take the battery down faster than the furnace. The furnace only runs for a few minutes at a time, lights are on all evening sometimes in the mornings. Next I bought a 65 Watt solar panel and set it up to be portable so I could chase the sun. This year I went one better and bought a true deep cycle batter that's rated at 100 amp hours instead of the normal hybrid battery rated at 74 to 80 amp hour.

The past winter in southern AZ, (Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument in January) I could go about 4 days without recharging. The solar panel did the job is less than a day.
In Bullhead City, AZ it was closer to a week. In Death Valley about 10 days. (only used the furnace a little bit on a couple days in Death Valley).

There are other ways to charge your battery, one is to move more often then the tow will charge while driving. Solar is a good way to go, cheaper initial cost and no maintenance cost. A generator has a large number of drawbacks, one it's initial cost is high, you have keep feeding it gasoline, and in many places usage is greatly restricted with more places increasing usage restrictions.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Condensation will happen when there's a difference between the outside temperature and the inside temperature. Sleeping under warm covers and vents cracked open balances the temperature. Turn up the furnace when you get up in the morning. And remember, when you boil water for the pasta dish or perk coffee on the stove... you're adding water to the inside of the trailer.

Science 95 (bonehead general science). Condensation occurs when air comes into contact with surfaces which the temperature is below the dew point. Dew point is the temperature where moisture condenses and is related to air temperature and relative humidity.
You're correct when you say that boiling water will increase condensation, that happens because the dew point is raised along with the RH.
By opening the ceiling vent and a window the warm moist air is let to escape, keeping the inside of trailer a bit warmer raises the surfaces temperature, hopefully to above the dew point.

[honda03842]

Lisa, we've been traveling for 14 years and condensation has never been an issue. Of course it occurs, mostly when we're traveling in a cooler climate where the windows over the bed may be closed. In that case we take a minute and wipe it off in the morning.

It usually doesn't occur because of propane. Most propane vents outside. The only one that doesn't is the stove. Again not a problem because when we're cooking we usually open a window and vent so it doesn't get too hot in the trailer. Ginny says making a cup of tea heats the place up.

As issues this is way down on our list, nothing we give a moments concern to worrying about or fixing other than to open a window and carry a shammy. We've now spent over 3000 nights traveling and Ginny has not asked me to 'fix it'.

[Christian in FL]

Nice to hear, thanks for the input everyone. I think I'll be boondocking with propane and solar. Yipeee!

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[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by mbbear

Hi John, Michael here from VA. I'm a relatively new to the group. I hope to do a winter sw trip as well, and I'm wondering if you guys were boondocking or primarily were hooked up? The heart of my question is that I've read that running the furnace will kill your battery quickly and I'm wondering how you dealt with this? Thanks!

Well Michael, if you get an old Trillium, the furnace has no fan. It is called a gravity furnace. They became unavailable in the late 70's. The applicable regulatory bodies, (CSA in Canada) felt that the surface temperature was too dangerously high. But keep the sleeping bags off the front and they provide heat and draw no electrical power. Mind you they are typically less efficient then a forced air furnace would be. That is you will burn more propane in a gravity furnace for the same amount of heat. But quiet operation, and no power draw is why I love them.

[John Linck]

Originally Posted by mbbear

Hi John, Michael here from VA. I'm a relatively new to the group. I hope to do a winter sw trip as well, and I'm wondering if you guys were boondocking or primarily were hooked up? The heart of my question is that I've read that running the furnace will kill your battery quickly and I'm wondering how you dealt with this? Thanks!

Michael,

I think this will pretty much rehash Bryon's post as I have a very similarly equipped rig and achieved similar results. (Good post Byron, btw) On our 60 day trip we were hooked to shore power about 10 nights. Actually little of that was necessary, just came with the campground. Otherwise we dry camp (no hookups). We towed about 7000 miles in 60 days. Towing certainly topped off the battery on driving days. Our 100 watt roof mounted solar panel kept us topped off during long stays in several national parks. Except at Yosemite where we stayed 11 days. It was the shade of those darned huge Ponderosa Pines and solar was almost useless. I watched the battery discharge over 6 days and finally get to 11.9 volts which is lower than I like to see. So we hitched up, drove to a sunny meadow under El Capitan, set up our beach chairs in a meadow leaving the Scamp in full mid-day sun. After lunch, hiking and reading and maybe even a short nap the battery was charged and we were good for the rest of our stay.

Our weather included mostly days in the 60's and nights near freezing. Over the weeks we moved to a regimen of using the furnace in the morning and evening. At bedtime we turned if off and climbed under our down quilt. I think the inside temps fell to the upper 40's on a few nights, warmer otherwise. Each morning I just reached over and turned on the furnace before we got out of bed. The furnace brought the temp up in less than 5 minutes. During the day we were outside hiking, etc and the furnace was off. Overall I think we set the thermostat at 68 for about 5 hours each day (morning and evening) and the furnace ran less than an hour during those 5 hours, just cycled on and off. BTW. We kept the roof vent open at all times except during towing.

Like Byron I am a fan of LED lights, propane and solar power. And I would buy a gravity furnace in a minute if someone made one today. I think generators are unnecessary and I really get annoyed at the noise fellow campers make with them. Camping should be quiet with a breeze in the trees, babbling brooks, animal noises and maybe an occasional child being a kid. Noisy diesel engines and generators are not for me.

Cheers and have a great trip, john

[Christian in FL]

Byron, John...can you elaborate on your rigs? E.G. TV , camper, size, power source to charge battery, size of battery, what you run off the system.....basically what I need to know to set up something similar in my Boler1300. Thanks

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