Heater removal

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Barrie,
We don't run our gas heater at night, and rarely during the day. It's just too loud. If we have AC we carry a small electric heater; we rarely run that at night. At night we have a twin size electric blanket that does the job easily.

Norm

We were camped in Big Bend National Park in February. The night time temperatures dropped to 5°F a couple of days. The day time temps barely made it above freezing. As with most National Parks there's no hook ups. It would have been pretty difficult without the propane furnace.

Now a bit more information. There's more fires caused by small electric space heaters than propane forced air heaters.

[Greg H]

So it was all your fault Byron, that was the longest cold period here in the last thirty years. Just messing with you.

[Bill Robison]

Originally Posted by aimeelightsey

Can someone explain about the Egg all electric camper? Does that mean people in Eggs can only stay in campgrounds with utility hookups?

Hi Aimee -

I see you are shopping for RV? What is your home state and what type of 'camping' do you enjoy?

We have the all electric EggCamper - took it about 10,000 miles last year. No, you don't *have* to have hookups in campgrounds, just depends. The camper is quite efficient - the lights and fridge will run at least a couple days off the deep cycle battery - or will charge while you drive and then be ready for you at night. We travel to the mountains and high elevations require heat in April, so we used a Honda 2000 generator. The Honda is super quiet, will run the electric heater for 10 -12 hrs on 1 gal. of gas - or heat water, run AC, micro or recharge your battery.

I am now installing a propane furnace, since we found the electric heater good for 30º F, but not powerful enough 12-15º F that we experienced in Wyoming springtime. We will enjoy the ease of a propane furnace - turn on tank - turn up thermostat ;-)

Again, it depends on the type of 'camping' you do. Hope this gives you some ideas to consider for your choice.

Bill

[rgrugg]

Bill....where are you going to install your propane furnace? Is it as large as the typical RV furnace or do you have a source for a smaller one?

[aimeelightsey]

Originally Posted by Bill Robison

Hi Aimee -

I see you are shopping for RV? What is your home state and what type of 'camping' do you enjoy?

We have the all electric EggCamper - took it about 10,000 miles last year. No, you don't *have* to have hookups in campgrounds, just depends. The camper is quite efficient - the lights and fridge will run at least a couple days off the deep cycle battery - or will charge while you drive and then be ready for you at night. We travel to the mountains and high elevations require heat in April, so we used a Honda 2000 generator. The Honda is super quiet, will run the electric heater for 10 -12 hrs on 1 gal. of gas - or heat water, run AC, micro or recharge your battery.

I am now installing a propane furnace, since we found the electric heater good for 30º F, but not powerful enough 12-15º F that we experienced in Wyoming springtime. We will enjoy the ease of a propane furnace - turn on tank - turn up thermostat ;-)

Again, it depends on the type of 'camping' you do. Hope this gives you some ideas to consider for your choice.

Bill

Hi, Bill,
Thanks for the info there.
We are hoping to put a deposit down this week. We narrowed it to 2 campers: EggCamper and Trillium RV Limited (Irvine, CA)

I really don't like the fuzzy interiors on many campers. It seems it would retain odors (cooking, at least) as well as be difficult to clean. We have allergies as well. Therefore the two we found without the fuzzy interior were these two.

I had not considered all electric and since I have never camped I know nothing of these differences. The EggCamper guy is very much against propane. He will install it if you ask, but thinks it is quite dangerous.

Not sure what to do about that....

Is your vehicle weight really only around 2000 lbs? Even with a double shell? Wow.

Regarding our camping -- I figure we will be in campsites a lot, but since we like to rock climb we will be off the grid for up to 4 days at a time.

--Kris

[Bill Robison]

Originally Posted by rgrugg

Bill....where are you going to install your propane furnace? Is it as large as the typical RV furnace or do you have a source for a smaller one?

Hi Bob -

Yes, it is small. I took out the electric heater and enlarged the opening height by about 1". The furnace I selected is an Atwood 8012 II - so efficient thy use it on Mt Everest expeditions. It's 24#, tiny, 12,000 BTU (compared to 3000 BTU for the electric heater) and only draws 1.8 amp (compared to 3.8 amp for most others). I got mine at Panther RV online. We also carry our cube 700/1500 w heater just in case.

Bill

[Bill Robison]

Originally Posted by aimeelightsey

Hi, Bill,
Thanks for the info there.
We are hoping to put a deposit down this week. We narrowed it to 2 campers: EggCamper and Trillium RV Limited (Irvine, CA)

I really don't like the fuzzy interiors on many campers. It seems it would retain odors (cooking, at least) as well as be difficult to clean. We have allergies as well. Therefore the two we found without the fuzzy interior were these two.

I had not considered all electric and since I have never camped I know nothing of these differences. The EggCamper guy is very much against propane. He will install it if you ask, but thinks it is quite dangerous.

Not sure what to do about that....

Is your vehicle weight really only around 2000 lbs? Even with a double shell? Wow.

Regarding our camping -- I figure we will be in campsites a lot, but since we like to rock climb we will be off the grid for up to 4 days at a time.

--Kris

Hi Kris - We don't care for the 'fuz' either - - the gel-coat is so nice and easy to clean! I know Jim Palmer doesn't care to install propane, but I think having the propane furnace will fit our needs nicely - I'm installing it.

Yup! 2000# +/- pulls like it is invisible - - torflex axle holds the road like a Beemer. I tow with a 2005 TrailBlazer and get about 14-15 MPG loaded.

We also enjoy 'off grid' in the Rockies - very easy to do with a small generator (like my Honda) and/ or a solar panel. We carry a couple jump start type battery packs and a 15 watt solar panel - to allow us to stay off grid as long as we would like.

Good travels to you! I've attached a few pix for you from Devil's Tower.

Bill

[aimeelightsey]

Originally Posted by Bill Robison

Hi Kris - We don't care for the 'fuz' either - - the gel-coat is so nice and easy to clean! I know Jim Palmer doesn't care to install propane, but I think having the propane furnace will fit our needs nicely - I'm installing it.

Yup! 2000# +/- pulls like it is invisible - - torflex axle holds the road like a Beemer. I tow with a 2005 TrailBlazer and get about 14-15 MPG loaded.

We also enjoy 'off grid' in the Rockies - very easy to do with a small generator (like my Honda) and/ or a solar panel. We carry a couple jump start type battery packs and a 15 watt solar panel - to allow us to stay off grid as long as we would like.

Good travels to you! I've attached a few pix for you from Devil's Tower.

Bill

Wow, so you are a rock climber, too! Cool! Great shots!

Do you have to park in the sun for the solar thing to work?

Thanks!

[Bill Robison]

I love the mountains and photography - not a rock climber - I remembered taking these shot last spring in Wyoming.

My 15 watt solar panel is mobile - I just need a small place to catch the rays to recharge.

[Francesca Knowles]

I agree with Byron.
A properly maintained propane system is perfectly safe. It's also more efficient in terms of fuel usage than a generator.
Furthermore, it's a lot more pleasant for one's neighbors at camp, as the small levels of noise generated are contained within the user's trailer. The same can't be said of generators, none of which are quiet enough to be inaudible to others in the area.
And that should be the standard. Generator noise may be music to the ears of the user, but it's a loud intrusion to others. Many campgrounds and a growing number of wilderness areas ban their use for that reason.
Primitive camping environments have very low levels of ambient noise, which is a primary attraction for the people who use them. Nothing shatters the tranquility of the setting like a generator, especially if it's being used to power a heater, microwave, toaster, etc.
Folks with trepidations about propane systems should camp where shorepower is available or use non- intrusive electric systems like solar.

Francesca

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by aimeelightsey

Hi, Bill,
Thanks for the info there.
We are hoping to put a deposit down this week. We narrowed it to 2 campers: EggCamper and Trillium RV Limited (Irvine, CA)

I had not considered all electric and since I have never camped I know nothing of these differences. The EggCamper guy is very much against propane. He will install it if you ask, but thinks it is quite dangerous.

<Clip>
Regarding our camping -- I figure we will be in campsites a lot, but since we like to rock climb we will be off the grid for up to 4 days at a time.

--Kris

Having no propane not only restricts you in regards to heating and drying out wet clothing but the bigger issue for me would be in regards to the fridge. I know that when camping off the grid for more than a couple of days even though I have a small solar panel that having the option of putting my 3 way fridge over to propane is a big plus. We cant always count on sun here on the wet coast. It becomes an even bigger plus if its hot out and I'm having to run the fan a lot and the fridge is working overtime. I would also very much miss having hot water to take my short shower with when boom docking. :-) I just spent 4 days camping with a girlfriend who switched to a new camper that does not have a propane option for her fridge and she is really missing it. She has just purchased a 60W solar system in hopes of solving her problem.

[Bill Robison]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Having no propane not only restricts you in regards to heating and drying out wet clothing but the bigger issue for me would be in regards to the fridge. I know that when camping off the grid for more than a couple of days even though I have a small solar panel that having the option of putting my 3 way fridge over to propane is a big plus. We cant always count on sun here on the wet coast. It becomes an even bigger plus if its hot out and I'm having to run the fan a lot and the fridge is working overtime. I would also very much miss having hot water to take my short shower with when boom docking. :-) I just spent 4 days camping with a girlfriend who switched to a new camper that does not have a propane option for her fridge and she is really missing it. She has just purchased a 60W solar system in hopes of solving her problem.

Carol - and others considering an EggCamper,

Too bad there is not enough information - or in some cases too much mis-information floating around out there...

*EggCamper fridge is different - 'all fridges are not created equal' *
I agree propane can be nice in certain situations, but it certainly is not mandatory to have a great time when camping. The rules are changing - EggCamper does NOT use an old-style ammonia process fridge, which requires bunches of continuous heat to 'boil' the ammonia (so that when the bubble burst you have the cooling effect). EggCamper is forward-looking, i.e. it utilizes a highly efficient Norcold COMPRESSOR type fridge, it only draws 12v (or 120v) while the compressor is running. Our experience is such that the compressor runs for about 1.5 min then is off for maybe 15-20 minutes - - a drastic change from the old style '3-way' (which become a 'one-way' - since most people ONLY run them on propane in order to create a nearly continuous heat source.

*EggCamper water heater is different*
It utilizes a 2.5 gallon 'Point Of Use' (POU) heater that is also quite efficient. It does not run on 12v- it's 120v only - but we have hot water for shower in about 4-5 minutes (literally) by using our Honda 2000EUi generator.

Most of our camping is off-grid and we love the EggCamper. The fridge will easily runs 2-3 days off the deep cycle on the tongue - maybe more - we typically move to various national forest locations after 2-3 days so the battery re-charges while driving. Worst case - connect the tow vehicle and charge the battery for a while (in situ) the car alternator puts out around 90 amps.

I will step down from my soapbox (for now) ;-)
I like to challenge new ways of thinking about 'camping' and how we can utilize the energy alternatives we have available today - it's much different today, then when my parents towed a 5-6000# trailer down the road with 80#s of LP (gas + 2 tanks) on the tongue, not to mention the heavy equalizer hitch. None of this is required today - with a 2000# - low profile - low maintenance - double wall - insulated - efficient EggCamper. I'm sure there are other great fiberglass campers out there taking a 'new' approach to camping, but we are very pleased with our Egg ;-)

[Francesca Knowles]

Pound for pound, propane (quietly) delivers far more energy than lead batteries.
On my early March trip to Eastern Washington a single 40 lb cylinder (20 lbs of fuel) supplied me with heat, refrigeration, hot water, and cooking for six cold days before I had to refill it. How many pounds of deep cycle battery would be required to perform the same function? Probably so many that one would lose all the advantage of having purchased a "lightweight" trailer. So Eggcamper supples a spot on the tongue for a generator. It's hard to see what's innovative about that.
Ironically, the Eggcamper's double wall construction may serve to reduce noise levels INSIDE the trailer. The generator is probably louder to one's neighbors than to the users.....
Using a generator to supply electricity is not "off-grid camping". It's "bring your own grid camping".

Francesca

[Bill Robison]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Pound for pound, propane (quietly) delivers far more energy than lead batteries.
On my early March trip to Eastern Washington a single 40 lb cylinder (20 lbs of fuel) supplied me with heat, refrigeration, hot water, and cooking for six cold days before I had to refill it. How many pounds of deep cycle battery would be required to perform the same function? Probably so many that one would lose all the advantage of having purchased a "lightweight" trailer. So Eggcamper supples a spot on the tongue for a generator. It's hard to see what's innovative about that.
Ironically, the Eggcamper's double wall construction probably serves to reduce noise levels INSIDE the trailer. The generator is probably louder to one's neighbors than to the users.....
Using a generator to supply electricity is not "off-grid camping". It's "bring your own grid camping".

Francesca

Sounds like you have taken issue with my comments? I was not intending to be argumentative - only attempting to make a couple of points:

#1 - There is a lot of mis-information out there about what some campers have or don't have - - can or cannot do, which individuals then use 'as fact' to make erroneous choices regarding RV purchases.

#2 - There are many different camping styles - each individual should do it the way it is fun for them.

Yes, I own an EggCamper - and yet I installed a propane furnace and put a 20# LP tank in the tongue box, because it better fits our needs for colder camping in the mountains and dosn't require us to run the genny on cold nights . We agree about propane being a good choice for some.

Yes, there is a place on the tongue for a small generator. What's inovative about that? Well, the EggCamper's new all electric design offers a different set of choices for camping - 'plug in' at the campground OR 'plug in' to your generator for heavy use times OR don't plug in and use the onboard battery for lights, water pump, fridge for several days - totally unplugged.

Not so ironic that double wall construction makes it quieter inside than out... Tunnel vision sometimes keeps one from seeing the 'broad view' of life. Yes it is quiet inside and warmer and uses much less energy to heat and/or cool as a result of the dbl wall, insulated construction. The Honda EU2000i generator is not the 'run of the mill' deafening, 125dB generators used by most RVers - it is newly designed to create 120v even at idle - not just with 3600 RPM as the old-style generators require. It is rated at 48dB - quieter than human speech, which is around 72db in normal conversation. It is so efficient it can run for 10-12 hrs on less than 1 gal of gas. Our generator is NOT noisier for the neighbors - it is only used if there are no neighbors and most of the time we are in the boonies so it is moot.

Using your logic - using solar is also 'bringing your own grid' camping ;-) (I also carry a 15 watt solar panel.)

Not sure why so many 'pointed' comments - I was simply sharing a few ideas about different ways to make use of the great out-of-doors ;-)

Oh BTW - we spent 5 weeks in Utah, Wyoming and Montana last april and May and didn't use any propane - only one type 24 battery and 5 gallons of gas for the genny -temps dipped to as low as 12º F and we had a great trip with our EggCamper ;-)

Peace...

Bill

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Bill Robison

Oh BTW - we spent 5 weeks in Utah, Wyoming and Montana last april and May and didn't use any propane - only one type 24 battery and 5 gallons of gas for the genny -temps dipped to as low as 12º F and we had a great trip with our EggCamper ;-)

Peace...

Bill

For purposes of efficiencies comparison to my experience, how many days of the five weeks were you plugged in to shorepower?
In my case, there were none.

Peace (and quiet!) to you, too

Francesca

[Bill Robison]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

For purposes of efficiencies comparison to my experience, how many days of the five weeks were you plugged in to shorepower?
In my case, there were none.

Peace (and quiet!) to you, too

Francesca

This is getting a bit on the childish side...

In my case there were three days in Utah - parked at my cousin's ;-)

Not sure what you mean ...'and quiet!' ??

Isn't life interesting?

'Life is like a journey down a beautiful road - not to be enjoyed only at its destination, but rather all along the way' ;-)

Bill

[aimeelightsey]

Well, I have to say these conversations are illuminating for us.

When you guys go back and forth on specific points it clarifies things a lot in terms of seeing the whole picture.

Much appreciation to both of you....

[aimeelightsey]

One more question for Bill --
I know the Honda has done a great job making their new generators be more efficient and quiet, and I did see the specification for the decibels, but could you tell us about how far away you would need to be standing from it before you can't hear it anymore?

We just have no experience with generators in the slightest...

Thanks!

[mcbrew]

When I was considering a NEW Scamp, I had the propane furnace on my list. Now that I have purchased a used Scamp that didn't have the furnace, I have changed my mind about it. Storage space is at such a premium that I wouldn't want to give any up for the furnace. I bring a 1500 watt cube heater for cool nights when I can plug into shore power, and a Buddy Jr propane heater for colder nights or boon docking. I just spent a night in Arlington, VA... Camped on the side of the road. I knew it was going to get down into the 40s, so I hooked up the Buddy and it kept me warm. Didn't have to leave it on for long, either.

[Carol H]

[QUOTE=Bill Robison;248336]Carol - and others considering an EggCamper,

Too bad there is not enough information - or in some cases too much mis-information floating around out there...

QUOTE]

Thanks Bill for the clarification on what’s installed in the Egg camper. I have no doubt that it works great for you and that it is well built but I am not actually looking to buy a new trailer. When I win the lottery I pretty well already know what I will be replacing my Scamp with. I was just sharing my experience in regards to the ups and downs of choosing to not go with propane regardless of the trailer make.

As I mentioned the party who I camp with who doesn’t have propane as an option also has a very new trailer (its not BTW an Egg), with high end appliances which based on model, manufacture and age I know they are far more energy efficient than what I have. But none the less they have a problem going for more than a few days off the gird even with two batteries. She had propane on her previous trailer so she has had camping experence using it to compare to. Bill as your photos show a generator being used I'm assuming you have the same issue?

A generator isnt an option for my friend as they would find their camping alone due to the views of most of their camping buddy’s regarding the sound - yup even the small battery pack ones. The use of a generator may soon also not be an option by law in many of the places they camp.

What out of curiosity is the tongue weight on your Egg? Your right propane tanks do add to tongue weight but most with small trailers such as ours only carry one tank - some get by with one small 10lb tank. My 16' trailer with a side bath, loaded with gear, a 20lb tank and one battery is between 220-240lbs. Without my stuff in the trailer it comes in at less. I am actually going to but it on the same weight watchers diet that form member Mike started last week and clean it out!

I have noticed that many trailers without propane as an option have two batteries on the tongue which as I recall are not all that light -so losing one battery and replacing it with a tank may not amount to that much of a weight gain on the tongue. Without propane one has two options when off the grid for many days - carry a generator - the weight of which will depend on how much power you need and how long you are off the grid for. The other option is solar panels the size and weight of those will also depend on how much extra power you need and what kind you buy. Keep in mind any time you add weight to the trailer some of it depending on where you stow it will transfer to the tongue. Adding weight will also regardless have an impact on the fuel efficiency of the tow vechile. I think it would take a really big spread sheet to determine which option really is more efficent, especially if one adds in the all the energy used to manufacture each choose! I know I'm not going there!

It is indeed important to have as much information as you can about the trailer and appliances you buy. I personally think though that its equally as important to look at where you camp, how you camp and who you camp with before making a decision regarding the use of propane and as mention the real and not so real safety issues regarding propane. Its a personal choose and its nice to have this form where people can share their experiences as it helps all of us to make a choose that in the end work for us. There is no right or wrong choose as long as it works for the person using it. No one likes to spend a lot of money of a new toy and not be happy with it.