Heater removal - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 05-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #29
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I love the mountains and photography - not a rock climber - I remembered taking these shot last spring in Wyoming.

My 15 watt solar panel is mobile - I just need a small place to catch the rays to recharge.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:41 PM   #30
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I agree with Byron.
A properly maintained propane system is perfectly safe. It's also more efficient in terms of fuel usage than a generator.
Furthermore, it's a lot more pleasant for one's neighbors at camp, as the small levels of noise generated are contained within the user's trailer. The same can't be said of generators, none of which are quiet enough to be inaudible to others in the area.
And that should be the standard. Generator noise may be music to the ears of the user, but it's a loud intrusion to others. Many campgrounds and a growing number of wilderness areas ban their use for that reason.
Primitive camping environments have very low levels of ambient noise, which is a primary attraction for the people who use them. Nothing shatters the tranquility of the setting like a generator, especially if it's being used to power a heater, microwave, toaster, etc.
Folks with trepidations about propane systems should camp where shorepower is available or use non- intrusive electric systems like solar.

Francesca
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:41 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aimeelightsey View Post
Hi, Bill,
Thanks for the info there.
We are hoping to put a deposit down this week. We narrowed it to 2 campers: EggCamper and Trillium RV Limited (Irvine, CA)

I had not considered all electric and since I have never camped I know nothing of these differences. The EggCamper guy is very much against propane. He will install it if you ask, but thinks it is quite dangerous.

<Clip>
Regarding our camping -- I figure we will be in campsites a lot, but since we like to rock climb we will be off the grid for up to 4 days at a time.

--Kris
Having no propane not only restricts you in regards to heating and drying out wet clothing but the bigger issue for me would be in regards to the fridge. I know that when camping off the grid for more than a couple of days even though I have a small solar panel that having the option of putting my 3 way fridge over to propane is a big plus. We cant always count on sun here on the wet coast. It becomes an even bigger plus if its hot out and I'm having to run the fan a lot and the fridge is working overtime. I would also very much miss having hot water to take my short shower with when boom docking. :-) I just spent 4 days camping with a girlfriend who switched to a new camper that does not have a propane option for her fridge and she is really missing it. She has just purchased a 60W solar system in hopes of solving her problem.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Having no propane not only restricts you in regards to heating and drying out wet clothing but the bigger issue for me would be in regards to the fridge. I know that when camping off the grid for more than a couple of days even though I have a small solar panel that having the option of putting my 3 way fridge over to propane is a big plus. We cant always count on sun here on the wet coast. It becomes an even bigger plus if its hot out and I'm having to run the fan a lot and the fridge is working overtime. I would also very much miss having hot water to take my short shower with when boom docking. :-) I just spent 4 days camping with a girlfriend who switched to a new camper that does not have a propane option for her fridge and she is really missing it. She has just purchased a 60W solar system in hopes of solving her problem.
Carol - and others considering an EggCamper,

Too bad there is not enough information - or in some cases too much mis-information floating around out there...

*EggCamper fridge is different - 'all fridges are not created equal' *
I agree propane can be nice in certain situations, but it certainly is not mandatory to have a great time when camping. The rules are changing - EggCamper does NOT use an old-style ammonia process fridge, which requires bunches of continuous heat to 'boil' the ammonia (so that when the bubble burst you have the cooling effect). EggCamper is forward-looking, i.e. it utilizes a highly efficient Norcold COMPRESSOR type fridge, it only draws 12v (or 120v) while the compressor is running. Our experience is such that the compressor runs for about 1.5 min then is off for maybe 15-20 minutes - - a drastic change from the old style '3-way' (which become a 'one-way' - since most people ONLY run them on propane in order to create a nearly continuous heat source.

*EggCamper water heater is different*
It utilizes a 2.5 gallon 'Point Of Use' (POU) heater that is also quite efficient. It does not run on 12v- it's 120v only - but we have hot water for shower in about 4-5 minutes (literally) by using our Honda 2000EUi generator.

Most of our camping is off-grid and we love the EggCamper. The fridge will easily runs 2-3 days off the deep cycle on the tongue - maybe more - we typically move to various national forest locations after 2-3 days so the battery re-charges while driving. Worst case - connect the tow vehicle and charge the battery for a while (in situ) the car alternator puts out around 90 amps.

I will step down from my soapbox (for now) ;-)
I like to challenge new ways of thinking about 'camping' and how we can utilize the energy alternatives we have available today - it's much different today, then when my parents towed a 5-6000# trailer down the road with 80#s of LP (gas + 2 tanks) on the tongue, not to mention the heavy equalizer hitch. None of this is required today - with a 2000# - low profile - low maintenance - double wall - insulated - efficient EggCamper. I'm sure there are other great fiberglass campers out there taking a 'new' approach to camping, but we are very pleased with our Egg ;-)
Attached Thumbnails
Wyoming_12F.jpg   Honda_EU2000i.jpg  

Gros Ventre Camp_WY.jpg   Fremont Lake_WY.jpg  

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Old 05-04-2011, 11:06 AM   #33
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Pound for pound, propane (quietly) delivers far more energy than lead batteries.
On my early March trip to Eastern Washington a single 40 lb cylinder (20 lbs of fuel) supplied me with heat, refrigeration, hot water, and cooking for six cold days before I had to refill it. How many pounds of deep cycle battery would be required to perform the same function? Probably so many that one would lose all the advantage of having purchased a "lightweight" trailer. So Eggcamper supples a spot on the tongue for a generator. It's hard to see what's innovative about that.
Ironically, the Eggcamper's double wall construction may serve to reduce noise levels INSIDE the trailer. The generator is probably louder to one's neighbors than to the users.....
Using a generator to supply electricity is not "off-grid camping". It's "bring your own grid camping".

Francesca
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
Pound for pound, propane (quietly) delivers far more energy than lead batteries.
On my early March trip to Eastern Washington a single 40 lb cylinder (20 lbs of fuel) supplied me with heat, refrigeration, hot water, and cooking for six cold days before I had to refill it. How many pounds of deep cycle battery would be required to perform the same function? Probably so many that one would lose all the advantage of having purchased a "lightweight" trailer. So Eggcamper supples a spot on the tongue for a generator. It's hard to see what's innovative about that.
Ironically, the Eggcamper's double wall construction probably serves to reduce noise levels INSIDE the trailer. The generator is probably louder to one's neighbors than to the users.....
Using a generator to supply electricity is not "off-grid camping". It's "bring your own grid camping".

Francesca
Sounds like you have taken issue with my comments? I was not intending to be argumentative - only attempting to make a couple of points:

#1 - There is a lot of mis-information out there about what some campers have or don't have - - can or cannot do, which individuals then use 'as fact' to make erroneous choices regarding RV purchases.

#2 - There are many different camping styles - each individual should do it the way it is fun for them.

Yes, I own an EggCamper - and yet I installed a propane furnace and put a 20# LP tank in the tongue box, because it better fits our needs for colder camping in the mountains and dosn't require us to run the genny on cold nights . We agree about propane being a good choice for some.

Yes, there is a place on the tongue for a small generator. What's inovative about that? Well, the EggCamper's new all electric design offers a different set of choices for camping - 'plug in' at the campground OR 'plug in' to your generator for heavy use times OR don't plug in and use the onboard battery for lights, water pump, fridge for several days - totally unplugged.

Not so ironic that double wall construction makes it quieter inside than out... Tunnel vision sometimes keeps one from seeing the 'broad view' of life. Yes it is quiet inside and warmer and uses much less energy to heat and/or cool as a result of the dbl wall, insulated construction. The Honda EU2000i generator is not the 'run of the mill' deafening, 125dB generators used by most RVers - it is newly designed to create 120v even at idle - not just with 3600 RPM as the old-style generators require. It is rated at 48dB - quieter than human speech, which is around 72db in normal conversation. It is so efficient it can run for 10-12 hrs on less than 1 gal of gas. Our generator is NOT noisier for the neighbors - it is only used if there are no neighbors and most of the time we are in the boonies so it is moot.

Using your logic - using solar is also 'bringing your own grid' camping ;-) (I also carry a 15 watt solar panel.)

Not sure why so many 'pointed' comments - I was simply sharing a few ideas about different ways to make use of the great out-of-doors ;-)

Oh BTW - we spent 5 weeks in Utah, Wyoming and Montana last april and May and didn't use any propane - only one type 24 battery and 5 gallons of gas for the genny -temps dipped to as low as 12 F and we had a great trip with our EggCamper ;-)

Peace...

Bill
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:01 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Robison View Post
Oh BTW - we spent 5 weeks in Utah, Wyoming and Montana last april and May and didn't use any propane - only one type 24 battery and 5 gallons of gas for the genny -temps dipped to as low as 12 F and we had a great trip with our EggCamper ;-)

Peace...

Bill
For purposes of efficiencies comparison to my experience, how many days of the five weeks were you plugged in to shorepower?
In my case, there were none.

Peace (and quiet!) to you, too

Francesca
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:22 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
For purposes of efficiencies comparison to my experience, how many days of the five weeks were you plugged in to shorepower?
In my case, there were none.

Peace (and quiet!) to you, too

Francesca
This is getting a bit on the childish side...

In my case there were three days in Utah - parked at my cousin's ;-)

Not sure what you mean ...'and quiet!' ??

Isn't life interesting?

'Life is like a journey down a beautiful road - not to be enjoyed only at its destination, but rather all along the way' ;-)

Bill
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:44 PM   #37
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Well, I have to say these conversations are illuminating for us.

When you guys go back and forth on specific points it clarifies things a lot in terms of seeing the whole picture.

Much appreciation to both of you....
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:47 PM   #38
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One more question for Bill --
I know the Honda has done a great job making their new generators be more efficient and quiet, and I did see the specification for the decibels, but could you tell us about how far away you would need to be standing from it before you can't hear it anymore?

We just have no experience with generators in the slightest...

Thanks!
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:04 PM   #39
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When I was considering a NEW Scamp, I had the propane furnace on my list. Now that I have purchased a used Scamp that didn't have the furnace, I have changed my mind about it. Storage space is at such a premium that I wouldn't want to give any up for the furnace. I bring a 1500 watt cube heater for cool nights when I can plug into shore power, and a Buddy Jr propane heater for colder nights or boon docking. I just spent a night in Arlington, VA... Camped on the side of the road. I knew it was going to get down into the 40s, so I hooked up the Buddy and it kept me warm. Didn't have to leave it on for long, either.
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:45 PM   #40
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[QUOTE=Bill Robison;248336]Carol - and others considering an EggCamper,

Too bad there is not enough information - or in some cases too much mis-information floating around out there...

QUOTE]

Thanks Bill for the clarification on what’s installed in the Egg camper. I have no doubt that it works great for you and that it is well built but I am not actually looking to buy a new trailer. When I win the lottery I pretty well already know what I will be replacing my Scamp with. I was just sharing my experience in regards to the ups and downs of choosing to not go with propane regardless of the trailer make.

As I mentioned the party who I camp with who doesn’t have propane as an option also has a very new trailer (its not BTW an Egg), with high end appliances which based on model, manufacture and age I know they are far more energy efficient than what I have. But none the less they have a problem going for more than a few days off the gird even with two batteries. She had propane on her previous trailer so she has had camping experence using it to compare to. Bill as your photos show a generator being used I'm assuming you have the same issue?

A generator isnt an option for my friend as they would find their camping alone due to the views of most of their camping buddy’s regarding the sound - yup even the small battery pack ones. The use of a generator may soon also not be an option by law in many of the places they camp.

What out of curiosity is the tongue weight on your Egg? Your right propane tanks do add to tongue weight but most with small trailers such as ours only carry one tank - some get by with one small 10lb tank. My 16' trailer with a side bath, loaded with gear, a 20lb tank and one battery is between 220-240lbs. Without my stuff in the trailer it comes in at less. I am actually going to but it on the same weight watchers diet that form member Mike started last week and clean it out!

I have noticed that many trailers without propane as an option have two batteries on the tongue which as I recall are not all that light -so losing one battery and replacing it with a tank may not amount to that much of a weight gain on the tongue. Without propane one has two options when off the grid for many days - carry a generator - the weight of which will depend on how much power you need and how long you are off the grid for. The other option is solar panels the size and weight of those will also depend on how much extra power you need and what kind you buy. Keep in mind any time you add weight to the trailer some of it depending on where you stow it will transfer to the tongue. Adding weight will also regardless have an impact on the fuel efficiency of the tow vechile. I think it would take a really big spread sheet to determine which option really is more efficent, especially if one adds in the all the energy used to manufacture each choose! I know I'm not going there!

It is indeed important to have as much information as you can about the trailer and appliances you buy. I personally think though that its equally as important to look at where you camp, how you camp and who you camp with before making a decision regarding the use of propane and as mention the real and not so real safety issues regarding propane. Its a personal choose and its nice to have this form where people can share their experiences as it helps all of us to make a choose that in the end work for us. There is no right or wrong choose as long as it works for the person using it. No one likes to spend a lot of money of a new toy and not be happy with it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:02 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by aimeelightsey View Post
One more question for Bill --
I know the Honda has done a great job making their new generators be more efficient and quiet, and I did see the specification for the decibels, but could you tell us about how far away you would need to be standing from it before you can't hear it anymore?

We just have no experience with generators in the slightest...

Thanks!
Good (difficult) question that requires a philosophical and subjective answer. What (large trees, water, rocks, steel buildings, etc.) is near where you are using the genny? How much load is on the Honda? How fast is it running? Is It covered? Is it sitting in a hole or recessed area in the ground? etc. etc.

How far away do you have to be from a tree falling in the woods before you will not hear it fall? I'm not trying to be difficult - I have a rather deep background in audiology and science of sound - I asked the same question before I decided to by one.

Perhaps the best answer available is - - for those who hate gennys, they would THINK they could still hear it a mile away ;-) If you haven't had a show or washed your hair for two days following a couple herd days of climbing, you would consider it to be super quiet while it runs for 10 minutes to heat water for two showers ;-) You see it is very subjective.

"...how far away you would need to be standing from it before you can't hear it anymore?" Hhmmm - last year we were allowed to use our Honda in a specified loop at Gros Ventre Campground in the Tetons - not heavily treed, two sites away it was a nearly imperceptible hum on ECO setting. I set it way in the back of the site - put a cover over it which dulls the sound of the motor and exhaust - with a flap I designed to send the sound to the ground (base of a tree) and if there is a depression in the ground set at the lowest point. I asked local campers if it was a nuisance for them - their response was, "What?". Others also had their quiet Honda or Yamaha running and they were not audible at our site even though we could easily see them - but those gennys that 'wake the dead' could be heard all the way out of the campground. Hope this helps some.

They certainly are far from perfect, but if you NEED power to charge a battery or heat water for a couple showers at at 4:00 pm - honestly who can complain? However, we have been at off-the-beaten-track national forest campground (Ty Flume) in the Bighorns where two 'campers' decided to watch TV in this serene place beside a rushing mountain stream - - one was a huge motor home with a diesel genny and the other was an old-style 5,000 watt (enough to run an entire home) sitting in the metal pickup bed of a 1983 Chevy doing the 'genny dance', while he watch his 12" TV in a tent - both of these ran for about 3 hrs - until past 11:00 pm ;-) Now the question begs to be asked, "...about how far away you would need to be standing from it before you can't hear it anymore?" - - maybe Cody, WY or Red Lodge, MT ;-)

The Honda IS quiet, but not silent. The sound it makes can be controlled by using a bit of common sense regarding where the spark arrestor exhaust is aimed, keep it on ECO setting and make a cover with an exhaust defector (which also works for rainy/snowy weather too). It can be running at your feet on ECO and you can carry on a conversation with another camper. Don't let it run all night with campers close by. Responsible genny use is much like driving a car safely - lots and lots of variables - all of which require good choices - to expect good outcome ;-)

Bill
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:26 PM   #42
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I'm one of those who isn't thrilled with propane---BUT my main reasoning is what Jesse said! We are redoing Bean's interior and the furnace is out, the 2 burner stove is out and the fridge is out!

I realized I'll always need storage space--but I won't always need a furnace. Maybe never---but I'm prepared to bring a electric cube and/or Mr. Buddy if I need some heat.
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