I am a BAD Mommy

[peterh]

Answering the altitude question: There are two different lines of Catalytic heaters from Olympian, ones with an ODS (Oxygen Depletion Sensor) and those without (like my Wave 3 and Gina's former Wave 6). The Wave heaters without sensors work at any altitude you can drive a car to.

[Joe Z]

Thats the one i have without the ODS and it works really well even though i haven't had it much over 4000 ft.
That blue flame heater that gina has looks interesting.. Hope it works out well
Joe

[shane n]

"Quartzite in a 40 year old stiky" I thought you were livin large in a land yacht in the great north. Maybe just your off season digs, kinda like a snowbird?

[Gina D.]

Shane, no, thats a summer gig. I sold the motorhome a few months ago. Hated it.

[Bruce Thomas]

Originally Posted by peterh

Answering the altitude question: There are two different lines of Catalytic heaters from Olympian, ones with an ODS (Oxygen Depletion Sensor) and those without (like my Wave 3 and Gina's former Wave 6). The Wave heaters without sensors work at any altitude you can drive a car to.

do you think the sensor will awake you once your half dead from oxygen depletion? I dont.
Both of these heaters should only be on when you're awake and monitoring them.

[peterh]

Originally Posted by Bruce Thomas

do you think the sensor will awake you once your half dead from oxygen depletion? I dont.
Both of these heaters should only be on when you're awake and monitoring them.

The idea behind the ODS sensor used in the Portable Buddy and other ODS propane systems is that it'll switch off before oxygen levels fall below a 16% minimum. You never get to the point where you are half-dead from oxygen depletion with an ODS heater.

I have no such guarantee with my Wave 3, so must be careful to keep a window and vent cracked. with a window and vent cracked I have two powerful forces of physics working in my favor to keep the oxygen in my trailer at a healthy level: the laws of convection (heat rises, taking warm air out of the vent and sucking fresh air in the window) and the ideal gas laws (which are more difficult to explain, but basically force high concentrations of a gas, say oxygen on the outside of the trailer, into areas where the concentration is lower, like the oxygen inside the trailer).

Safe in this knowledge, I sleep soundly and wake hearty . . . assuming I remember to open the window and vent. This is an important and vital assumption, and I wouldn't recommend the Wave 3 to anyone who isn't absolutely sure they'll always remember to do this.

[Joe Z]

peterh
I have the older wave 6 without the ODS sensor and really like..... I keep it on the floor in front of the bathroon with a hose running to an outside tank. I get temped to sleep with it also ( by myself of course so not to put anyone else in danger) being the heater is on the floor and i open the bathroom window which of course is above the heater and the roof vent opened some is that still safe like that in your opinion?______ The link i gave above for this heater shows 24 square inches of open window space ( but not sure if they mean the Wave 3, 6 or 9) and not sure how much is enough?____.
You seem to really know your stuff in this area and any info would be helpful.
Thnx,
Joe

[peterh]

Originally Posted by peterh

What these two methods have in common is they are simple chemical reactions: propane and oxygen combine and burn freely and randomly, creating a high-temperature flame as well as byproducts that can easily include carbon monoxide.

The Wave 3 heater doesn't create a flame. It uses a platinum catalyst (which is why they're spendy) that grabs a hold of the propane molecules as they enter the heater and holds them rigidly in a way that makes combining them with oxygen orderly and easy . . . catalytic systems will only create carbon monoxide ad oxygen levels in the room drop dangerously low.

I need to correct an assertion I made about carbon monoxide (CO) emissions from catalytic heaters. Brian B-P pointed me at some research articles (which I had read previously, and should have remembered more accurately) that measured carbon monoxide emissions and other features of platinum catalyst camping heaters. Their research showed CO emissions were at their minimum as oxygen levels declined into the critical region (opposite of what I had said), but that as oxygen levels fall we absorb more CO gas, compounding its effect.

Buried in this report is information on how many air exchanges per hour are needed to prevent oxygen (02) levels from falling below the 16% healthy threshold (21% is normal, 12% is where low O2 levels start to impair function) and information on how long it takes O2 levels to drop below that threshold in a sealed 100-cubic-foot space. (The size of a 4'8" cube, about 1/3 the air space in a 13' trailer). They also show that O2 consumption is directly proportionate to the BTU output of the heater. It's interesting reading.

It takes a 3200 BTU heater (slightly more than the output of a Wave 3 heater) about 1 hour to drop O2 levels below 16% in a sealed 100-square-foot room. That would suggest that, if you duct-taped and tightly sealed every point where air could seep in and out of a 13' Scamp and set your Wave 3 on high, it would take three hours or more to deplete the oxygen inside the trailer below 16%.

Humans, of course, also produce heat and consume oxygen at an average rate of about 350 btu/hr, so you'd have to include that in your calculations. My guess is, if you duct-taped all your windows, doors, hatches, vents, and cracks where the shell meets the floor closed (because without this your trailer will leak air in and out) and sit inside to find out how long to collapse and die of oxygen depletion, I think you'd get a raging headache at 2.5-3 hours and loose consciousness at four or five. Set your Wave 3 on low (1500 BTU) and you'd likely double that time.

[peterh]

Joe, I keep coming across references to a Consumer Products Safety Commission recommendation of 1 square inch of opening for every 1000 BTUs of ventless heater output, with half of that opening located low in the space being heated, the other half high. This recommendation seems to apply to all combustion-type ventless space heaters -- catalytic heaters, radiant/ceramic heaters, and open flame heaters -- whether they run on natural gas, propane, or kerosene.

We accomplish this by cracking the window over the heater by about 1/4" (creating about 2 square inches of opening) and the vent over our bed by a tad (creating an opening that's even larger). Point is we greatly exceed this recommendation.

Safety margins are a good thing.

Originally Posted by Joe Z

peterh
I have the older wave 6 without the ODS sensor and really like..... I keep it on the floor in front of the bathroon with a hose running to an outside tank. I get temped to sleep with it also ( by myself of course so not to put anyone else in danger) being the heater is on the floor and i open the bathroom window which of course is above the heater and the roof vent opened some is that still safe like that in your opinion?______ The link i gave above for this heater shows 24 square inches of open window space ( but not sure if they mean the Wave 3, 6 or 9) and not sure how much is enough?____.
You seem to really know your stuff in this area and any info would be helpful.
Thnx,
Joe

[Joe Z]

Thanks Peter..... I always look forward to reading your posts. Always very thorough.
Have a great weekend.
Joe

[BobB]

Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very important and practical risk of using an unvented heater in an enclosed space. Carbon monoxide has an affinity for hemoglobin that is 200 times that of oxygen. What that means is carbon monoxide will accumulate in a person when the concentration is greater than roughly 0.1%. Once approximately 30% of your hemoglobin is combined with carbon monoxide, you are not likely to be able to save yourself by getting out of the trailer due to lethargy, confusion and impending coma. Carbon monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless and you won't have any idea what is happening. There is no struggle or discomfort. Once carbon monoxide is taken in, it is difficult to get out. Breathing fresh air will remove half of it in 4-5 hours. Breathing 100% oxygen will remove half in a little less than hour. High altitude compounds the risk and more than a few mountain climbers have died in tents from carbon monoxide poisoning. So be careful with those unvented heaters!

[peterh]

I have a carbon monoxide/fire alarm in my trailer for just that reason.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by BobB

... Carbon monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless and you won't have any idea what is happening. There is no struggle or discomfort...

Sounds like a relatively good way to go. I'll have to remember it, if I ever have an incurable and painful illness.

All the talk about altitude reminds me of the time we rented a U-Haul egg (mid 1980s) in Michigan and headed for Arizona. It was mid-April. Up the road (literally UP) west of Colorado Springs, the altitude prevented the little heater from working. 2 adults and 2 kids huddled into the back bed for a cold night, below 20 degrees and a nice blanket of fresh snow. Back down to the city in the morning to have it looked at... and it fired right up, nothing wrong. Next night at higher altitude, again no heat. Back down the mountain, the uhaul dealer figures out that the spark gap needed to be set differently for the thin air. By that time we were fed up. Instead of continuing to Arizona to see my dad, we headed home. Despite the problems I have fond memories... something to laugh about now.

I've been using a Coleman Black Cat for the last 2-3 years. It can run at 1500 or 3000 BTU, but only at the lower setting can it last all night on a little bottle. No problems using it at 8000 feet last June in Utah, with windows cracked open of course, and being portable it's easy to point it at the bed. But I still would rather have something with a thermostat and a line to the 20 lb. tank.

Gina, wish I could pet your dog. So lovable looking! Reminds me of the dog I had when growing up, a Beagle named Trixie.

[Roger C H]

SO glad your furry kids made it. That was close. Don't YOU feel guilty, stuff happens.

I remember on a 'tiny house' website seeing a tiny little wood stove. I ofter wonder if something like that would be practical for an egg.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

I remember on a 'tiny house' website seeing a tiny little wood stove. I ofter wonder if something like that would be practical for an egg.

It's been done in an egg Roger. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...one-34235.html

[Lizbeth]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

It's been done in an egg Roger. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...one-34235.html

As far as I can tell that never got put in, it was in the plans but didn't happen.

[Bobbie Mayer]

Here are Marine woodstoves, built for boats.

SARDINE STOVE INFO & SPECS.

[Lizbeth]

Bobbie, I have had that site bookmarked for years. I love those tiny stoves even if they are to pricey for my wallet.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Lizbeth

As far as I can tell that never got put in, it was in the plans but didn't happen.

We may never know now. cjlindsey sold the PineCone late last fall and as far as I know the new owners haven't joined ANY forum. Too bad, it would be interesting to find out if it was done and how it's working out.

[Roger C H]

THIS is the wood stove I was thinking of :

DickinsonMarine.com - Diesel Heaters

See the 7th item down.

3000-8000 BTU looks like it fits our requirements.

Dickinson also make kerosene and propane heaters if that floats your boat.

(A little seafaring humor there)

Boating equipment is first rate, better than RV by far. Of course also more expensive $$$$ also zero clearance, bulkhead mounted.

A note for Gina: Get a red tag, label it "Heater", and hang it on the door knob where you can't miss it.