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Old 10-17-2012, 09:54 PM   #21
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"Black is always hot," and that is why witches wear black.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:57 PM   #22
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When there is black and red, red is positive and black is negative. when there is just black and white wires, black is red, meaning it is positive and white is negative.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
When there is black and red, red is positive and black is negative. when there is just black and white wires, black is red, meaning it is positive and white is negative.
As with many things in this crazy world there are exceptions. In house wiring white is "neutral" and any other color is "hot" including red. You can have white, black, blue, and red in your house or business. My point is you need to be careful and understand the system in use. In trailers you have lots of wire colors, brakes are blue, back up lights are yellow, left turn and brake light are red, with white as negative

It can get really confusing if you aren't careful. A good mulitmeter is your friend.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:10 AM   #24
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I saw someplace that you claimed to be an engineer (EE). I make that same claim and disagree with you as does manufacturing, including automotive wiring, truck wiring, etc, etc. A properly crimped connection has been shown time and time again as the better. Soldering has some inherent problems and is more technical than most people think.

My experience is I've seen hundreds of solder joint failures, but I don't recall ever seeing a crimped connection fail. That's after 45 years in electronic manufacturing.
I've seen numerous crimped connections fail. The open ends allow moisture in. Much of the wire available today is not tinned. It doesn't take long for that copper to oxidize. You crimp, I'll solder. Then we'll both be happy. Raz
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:29 AM   #25
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Black is always hot. There is a saying to remember whenever you are doing 120V AC wiring that has always stuck in my head, before I ever got into the trade. "Black is hot, white is not".

With 12V DC, the most common convention by far is red is positive, and black is negative. Escape, and most trailer manufactures, use this. There have been the odd exception in the past, and if unsure, a polarity test is advised. I know in lots of marine wiring they use white as positive, and black still as negative. Boaters are weird though.
This is just not true?

Trust but Verify!

And please don't make me quote the Presidents again!
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:22 AM   #26
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With automobile wiring, hot is various different colours. It may be solid colour or various different striped colours. Ground, however is typically black. Why so? Would it be appropriate to use a similar cenvention in our trailers?

I have a repurposed ambulance that I use as a work truck. In the ambulance wiring, they etched numbers on the wires. The numbers identify the circuit that the wire serves. This etching policy makes it really easy to identify wires for circuits as appropriate. Is there an easy way to "home etch"? I have used label makers from your office supply, but found these not to be near as good. Thoughts?
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:32 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman View Post
Your first paragraph is correct for house AC wiring.
Your 12V DC is mostly correct. However, Scamp uses house hold wiring conventions. Black is positive and white is negative.

The only real convention followed the biggest percentage of the time is that green is ground (earth type of ground).

The best advice is to always check with meter.
My first paragraph was referring to AC wiring. When you use the term 'hot' wire, it refers to AC wiring. There is no 'hot' with DC. I think this may be a bit of a cause for confusion.

I think you missed the part where I used the term 'most common convention' referring to red/positive and black/negative, as well as saying to test for polarity if at all not certain.
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When there is black and red, red is positive and black is negative. when there is just black and white wires, black is red, meaning it is positive and white is negative.
More common than not with DC wiring using white and black wires, especially in the marine world, black is still negative, and white is positive. Byron saying that Scamp uses black/positive and white/negative is the first time I have heard this convention used, and the first time I have heard of white and black used for DC wiring in an RV. Could be others too I imagine, but my experience with those colours is with boats. Maybe I have led a sheltered life.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:21 AM   #28
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I've seen numerous crimped connections fail. The open ends allow moisture in. Much of the wire available today is not tinned. It doesn't take long for that copper to oxidize. You crimp, I'll solder. Then we'll both be happy. Raz
Totally agree, especially on trailers. Soldered connections are in danger of failing where there is a high frequency vibration like an engine or electric motor that can excite the soldered section of wire into vibrating at its resonant frequency. On a trailer, the biggest issue is water and corrosion.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:56 AM   #29
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At the risk of stating the obvious and more for newbies at modifying circuitry, the switch is wired to interrupt the power side not the common side. The theory being that with the switch off, touching any part of the downstream device to ground will not cause a spark (or worse). The ground contact on the illuminated switch is just to power the LED which draws very little current and can be modestly sized.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:07 AM   #30
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Totally agree, especially on trailers. Soldered connections are in danger of failing where there is a high frequency vibration like an engine or electric motor that can excite the soldered section of wire into vibrating at resonance frequency. On a trailer, the biggest issue is water and corrosion.
One must also consider how a solder connection is protected. If you are covering a solder joint with a wrap or two of cheap quality electrical tape, you are asking for trouble. If you are using premium quality heat shrink tubing, you will get better longevity. The "good stuff" usually is double walled and has a self sealing adhesive in it.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:55 AM   #31
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...... If you are covering a solder joint with a wrap or two of cheap quality electrical tape, you are asking for trouble.........

I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you talking about maintaining the conductivity of the electrical connection or are you talking about protecting the wire from flexing and becoming brittle, risking breakage at some point?

In my experience, the soldered joint makes a water tight seal at the junction between the two wires. A covering like electrical tape, shrink tubing or liquid tape serves to keep the splice from being accidentally shorted out and to some extent, supports the wires to prevent mechanical failure. Look at a circuit board. Hundreds of soldered connections, no electrical tape or shrink tubing.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:26 PM   #32
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I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you talking about maintaining the conductivity of the electrical connection or are you talking about protecting the wire from flexing and becoming brittle, risking breakage at some point?

In my experience, the soldered joint makes a water tight seal at the junction between the two wires. A covering like electrical tape, shrink tubing or liquid tape serves to keep the splice from being accidentally shorted out and to some extent, supports the wires to prevent mechanical failure. Look at a circuit board. Hundreds of soldered connections, no electrical tape or shrink tubing.
A circuit board has its own form of protection - the rigidity of the board itself, and the case that goes around the board. Its rare to find a commercial product with a fully exposed circuit board.

My experience with the cheap electrical tape is that the glue tends to loose its strength over time. The tape eventually slides or peels off. Heat shrink is much stronger and longer lasting.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:56 PM   #33
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Ford verses Chevy

This remind me of the Ford verses Chevy discussion. Both sides of the argument are very passionate in their opinions regarding "crimped' and 'soldered" but let's look at this in perspective. Jim is wiring "indicator lights that each draw less and .05 amps". I call tell you for sure that when using a crimped connection in this application that any corrosion that causes a voltage drop with this extremely low current flow will be negligible. What is the worst case scenario??...the light doesn't illuminate...probably only if the wire falls off completely. Most RVs are wired with crimp connections powering the major loads and they seldom fail. These are only indicator lights...)
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:32 PM   #34
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This remind me of the Ford verses Chevy discussion. Both sides of the argument are very passionate in their opinions regarding "crimped' and 'soldered" but let's look at this in perspective. Jim is wiring "indicator lights that each draw less and .05 amps". I call tell you for sure that when using a crimped connection in this application that any corrosion that causes a voltage drop with this extremely low current flow will be negligible. What is the worst case scenario??...the light doesn't illuminate...probably only if the wire falls off completely. Most RVs are wired with crimp connections powering the major loads and they seldom fail. These are only indicator lights...)

Open your computer and find a solder connection on anything put a PC board. Currents are in microamp range.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:33 AM   #35
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Jim said: Tomorrow I'll tap into a black wire, check it's polarity and then splice with a 12 ga wire and then butt splice into the real small maybe 18 ga wire. That should make everything kosher.


I believed Jim was cutting the wire to the heater on the water tank to add the connection there. If so, a bad connection could cause the heater to fail and the water in the tank to freeze. It could very well be that Jim may not have the skills to solder. Most folks who do not work in the field don't. I simply put the idea out there. The way this is suppose to work is that one person states a problem and others suggest solutions. Arguments and in some instances personal attacks chill the process. An array of opinions is desirable. A lack of respect for others is not. Raz

Note-while editing this post the sever took a coffee break and the dog needed my immediate attention. It took a while to complete my thoughts.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:54 AM   #36
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A few years back I intalled a "muffin" fan in the outside refrigerator compartment to facilitate air flow over the coils in hot weather. This year I went to turn on the fan and found that both crimped connections had broken where the wire entered the crimped connector at the switch. I don't offer this as a comment on soldered vs crimped connections but as an observation of a "hard" connection in a vibration prone application. "Hard" being possible with either crimped or soldered connections. My repair will be to replace the crimped connections but include shrink tubing at the ends to try to make the crimped end have a more gradual increase in flexibility. As an alternative, I'll try to wire-tie the connector end of the wiring to something near the switch to lessen flopping around where the wire exits the crimp.
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:06 AM   #37
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....... These are only indicator lights...)
I agree with you in this case, for this little light.

But, the most common wiring complaint on this board is for exterior lighting issues. When all is said and done it usually comes down to a poor connection. For the benefit of others, I think that a consistent, robust approach is prudent. And in my experience, soldering is robust.

If you want to use crimp connectors, go right ahead. Just park well off the shoulder, as it can be hard to see you with no tail lights.
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:59 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by P. Raz View Post
Jim said: Tomorrow I'll tap into a black wire, check it's polarity and then splice with a 12 ga wire and then butt splice into the real small maybe 18 ga wire. That should make everything kosher.


I believed Jim was cutting the wire to the heater on the water tank to add the connection there. If so, a bad connection could cause the heater to fail and the water in the tank to freeze. It could very well be that Jim may not have the skills to solder. Most folks who do not work in the field don't. I simply put the idea out there. The way this is suppose to work is that one person states a problem and others suggest solutions. Arguments and in some instances personal attacks chill the process. An array of opinions is desirable. A lack of respect for others is not. Raz

Note-while editing this post the sever took a coffee break and the dog needed my immediate attention. It took a while to complete my thoughts.
Actually I'm not touching the heat pads wires, they are really thick due to the 12v current draw. All I did was loosen the screw on the switch (escape uses screw connections on their switches, really secure) and slipped my little wire from the led light, crimped to a small connector under the wire and retightened. I did this on the open end of the switch, not the hot end. The black wire will be spliced into one of the existing wires nearby, must be 3 or 4 that are accessible.
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:17 AM   #39
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For some reason I find this a fascinating topic. Heaven help me. The propeller on my beanie is near to launching.

Searching the web looking for solder vs. crimp opinions I can find no clear-cut preference. NASA allows crimped connections. So too does the Experimental Aircraft Assn. But then they also allow soldered connections. A common thread appears to be to support the wire near the connection because both connections create a hard spot near the connection that promotes work hardening and subsequent fatigue failures. If I could infer a slight preference it would be for a two crimp connection over solder. One crimp on the bare wire and the second crimp on the insulation as a stress reliever. Your average cheesy crimp connector is a single crimp
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:29 AM   #40
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Actually I just twist the wires together and wrap them with Dollar store electrical tape. I just like to mess with Byron.
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