Making enclosure for 3-way fridge

[Bryan L.]

I haven't been able to find any threads detailing how one might build the enclosure when installing a 3-way fridge in place of the useless ice box. I've had enough of that useless ice melter! The enclosure has to separate the gases from the inside of the camper so it has to be done correctly. I ordered the fridge from Scamp and I'm ready to start. Just wondering if the enclosure can be built without having to remove the cabinet, what others have done, etc. Thanks for any advice.

[John Linck]

Originally Posted by Bryan L.

I haven't been able to find any threads detailing how one might build the enclosure when installing a 3-way fridge in place of the useless ice box. I've had enough of that useless ice melter! The enclosure has to separate the gases from the inside of the camper so it has to be done correctly. I ordered the fridge from Scamp and I'm ready to start. Just wondering if the enclosure can be built without having to remove the cabinet, what others have done, etc. Thanks for any advice.

I would use some care in planning this. My Scamp's factory install allows lots of waste heat (not combustion fumes) to stay inside the camper. I suspect with some insulation and baffles this could be largely eliminated. Others have added insulation around the frig box that must really help keep the beer cool and save propane. And I don't think a quality job could be done without removal of the cabinet. (Just armchair thinking, haven't done it)

Good luck and please post pictures of the process.

John

Pics of rocks at Chiricahua National Momument.

[rkbn]

Good question and project. I have this in mind as well. Please document the project and keep us apprised with photos as to how it goes. I will be taking notes. Thanks!

[Nor Cal Mike]

I am doing the same in my older model Casita 16ft. It has a Dometic 2 way but I would imagine the enclosure boxes are similar between our two situations. I was able to find a .pdf copy of the factory owners manual which included drawings of enclosure box. I believe I obtained this by doing a Google search by entering the serial number and brand name of the unit. The website I came up with was probably Dometic's service department which had downloadable ,pdf copies of their service manuals.

The box for my 2 way dometic was pretty straight forward. It is just an insulated box the back of the unit sealed against the trailer cab surrounding the upper and lower vents leading to the outside. The only caveat listed in the drawings was that over a certain distance from the vents ( I think it was 12") that you need to add a baffle in the space between the upper and lower vents. Since our trailers aren't very large, I see no way that we can exceed that measurement without putting the fridge way out into our living space so the baffle shouldn't be an issue.

Common sense tells me the more insulation that you can surround the right, left, bottom, top of the box with, the more efficient the unit will be. You cannot insulate the back as that needs the air flow and the door is insulated by the factory. Common sense also tells me that a tight seal around edges of the box where it meets the wall would be best. The parts of the wood enclosure that are hidden behind a counter don't have to be fancy. The skinnier materials you use leaves more room for insulation. The enclosure just has to keep the insulation reliably in place and maintain close fit to the wall. That close fit will probable include coming up with a template of the wall curve and transfering that to your box. I plan on using an adhesive strip of foam door and window sealer from the hardware store were the box fits to the wall as a gasket.

[Raz]

You might find an installation manual in the document center ( left column) or via a Google search. I would also expect one would come with the fridge. I know there is one for my Dometic RM 2193. Most folks here won't do there own install because of the gas.

[RV Doctor]

You may want to have a licensed RV professional check your work before activating the unit. Just to ensure all is good.
1). Upper and lower vents on outside wall
2). Sealed cabinetry to interior to prevent CMOX entry.
3). Proper connection and gas installation to RVIA gas code.
4). Proper 120 VAC connection and receptacle.
5). Proper DC supply and fusing for three way supply.
6). Proper grounding of refer to reduce cavitation and corrosion. Copper gas line should not be relyed upon for chassis ground.
Good Luck!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by RV Doctor

You may want to have a licensed RV professional check your work before activating the unit. Just to ensure all is good.
1). Upper and lower vents on outside wall
2). Sealed cabinetry to interior to prevent CMOX entry.
3). Proper connection and gas installation to RVIA gas code.
4). Proper 120 VAC connection and receptacle.
5). Proper DC supply and fusing for three way supply.
6). Proper grounding of refer to reduce cavitation and corrosion. Copper gas line should not be relyed upon for chassis ground.
Good Luck!

There's a license?
Anyway, I'm sure you will get an installation manual from your Fridge manufacturer. Something like this...
http://tnt.rvia.org/unipop.cfm?v=3&oid=11248

Before commencing, also consult the cover of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

[Jon Vermilye]

You might want to take a look at this PDF from Dometic describing installation clearances & baffling for their refrigerators. Proper installation makes them run much better.

[John Linck]

Originally Posted by floyd

My 13D Scamp came with an enclosure made from aluminum clad "Tuff-R" and aluminum tape. It is not only effective but looks great!
There might be some adhesive on the fridge sides to help hold the Tuff-R in place, but I'm not going to check.
It is still intact after 13-1/2 years.

Floyd,

I just removed the cutlery drawer and looked at my 2014 Scamp frig install. I see the Tuff-R you mention making an enclosure between the frig and the outside wall of the Scamp. This would seem to keep heat out. But the top and sides of the frig are just bare metal. There seems to be 1 to 2 inch gap on the top and sides. Seems some additional insulation would really help here. And the heat that warms the countertop I have complained about may be coming thru the Truff-R making additional insulation even better. What do you think?

Also, surely a fan to facilitate air movement on the hot side would help too.

Thanks, john

[floyd]

Originally Posted by John Linck

Floyd,

I just removed the cutlery drawer and looked at my 2014 Scamp frig install. I see the Tuff-R you mention making an enclosure between the frig and the outside wall of the Scamp. This would seem to keep heat out. But the top and sides of the frig are just bare metal. There seems to be 1 to 2 inch gap on the top and sides. Seems some additional insulation would really help here. And the heat that warms the countertop I have complained about may be coming thru the Truff-R making additional insulation even better. What do you think?

Also, I doubt the Tuff-R is a barrier for combustion gases. I think the frig folks use sheet metal for that.

Also' Surely a fan to facilitate air movement on the hot side would help too.

Thanks, john

Thank you very much.
I have been in and under too many Scamps and have not looked at mine for some time.
I have seen them boxed in with Tuff-R , maybe even some which I have owned,but I am embarrassed to say not mine!
I just went out and looked at mine and it is boxed in on the aft side with cabinet material from the outside wall to the fridge and on the top with sheet metal sealed to the outside wall at a 45° angle.
It looks very nice as is but I think a layer of Tuff-R on the side and top would be just fine for better insulation and I will consider it although it is not really necessary.

I just did a 2008 front bath standard this past year which may have been what I was thinking. Not sure which trailer I saw it in though.
Mine has no Tuff-R, but it is well sealed and I will try and post some pictures soon.
Sorry for my confusion!

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by John Linck

I would use some care in planning this. My Scamp's factory install allows lots of waste heat (not combustion fumes) to stay inside the camper. I John

Just a thought and probably wrong but. Wouldn't this heat be a minor benefit to have during cold camping if you could easily close it off during hot times? RV Doc????

[RV Doctor]

Dave. I hear what you are saying about a potential heat source but one of the most, if not, THE most important installation rules of any appliance involving burning fuel is Carbon Monoxide.
As an RV Service Technician we are responsible for the safe and proper installation of everything in an RV. Not just small Fiberglass trailers.
The first rule of any appliance installation involving combustibles is they MUST be vented to the exterior of the coach.
So in the case of a furnace, water heater or fridge, if there is spent fuel being created, there MUST be adequate ventilation to OUTSIDE of the living area.
This is why when you purchase a new, non DIY RV, the regulations for installation are followed implicitly.
All licenced, Journeyman RV Technicians must follow the complete RVIA code for everything they do in an RV. It is the law! In Canada, we have the CSA Z-240 code.
Also, when an RV manufacturer designs and builds an RV, say Bigfoot. Every aspect of that construction MUST meet, not guidelines, but regulations.
Carbon Monoxide is serious business! Just imagine if there was a damper on every fridge installation. Slide this way for heat and the other way for no heat. You just can’t have CMOX entering a living space. Headaches, dizziness, vomiting, nausea and even death come from CMOX poisoning.
Every day, in my business, we see DIY disasters! Propane lines and installations done dangerously wrong. Electrical wiring which is dangerous and well, you get it. Years ago, I had a customer call for quote on a BBQ connection job on his 300K Diesel Pusher Motorhome. He felt my quote was too expensive and did it DIY. He connected onto the high pressure line tank and ran the line, rubber garden hose to the low pressure connection. Biggest problem is the rubber hose couldn’t take the 250psi tank pressure and the line blew apart as he was driving. Filled the entire basement of the coach with LP. Fortunately they got the gas off and ventilated the basement. He had me rip out his DIY installation and do it to code. We preach safety first always! In this Google and YouTube age, everyone says “I can do that” and I applaud the DIY spirit but when it comes to things that CAN KILL YOU it is better to have someone who has earned their living by doing the job the RIGHT way and the SAFE way. According to the code and manufacturers specs. Sorry to ramble but it’s a sore spot for me! I’ll shut up now.

[John Linck]

Dave and Tony,

I don't believe Scamp erred in the install. No fumes come into the living space and the CO monitor is always silent. The heat crosses thru the thin Tuff-R enclosure that isolates combustion from the interior. Gases don't pass. But heat does. (Or at least gases don't pass now, after 30,000 miles who knows? See adding a fan below.)

This is a benefit in cool weather, though the frig has to work harder. But it warms the whole cabinet in warmer weather, including the sides of the frig, making it work harder and burn more propane, making more heat in an endless cycle. I intend to increase the R value of the heat barrier and add insulation to the top and sides of the frig to break the cycle, or at least slow it down.

I also intend to add a fan, like I did on my previous Scamp, to increase the air flow out the top vent. I expect a frig with a roof vent will use the chimney effect to aid airflow. My warm air exits just a few inches above the intake so little convection happens. A fan will boost the flow and increase safety by pushing exhaust gases out. This will also lower the temperature of the combustion compartment and reduce the heat moving towards the interior. So I can have cooler sleeping.

Staying cool is more often a problem than keeping warm, even with our Fall, Winter, Spring only camping. Summer is pretty great in Madison so we let the rest of the nation enjoy camping thru the hot months with crowded campgrounds, bugs and the need for noisy AC.

Anyway, here's hoping.

Cheers, john

[RV Doctor]

John. Thanks for that explanation.
Anytime a side wall vent is used heat dissipation is always an issue. The use of a fan or fans to aid in circulation is huge for efficiency.
Dometic and Norcold both use one or two fans on certain models. It does help with circulation especially in side wall vented installations.
I get opinionated in my old age and I’m not a fan of side wall vented refers. But given the fact they have been placed there by the manufacturer it is what it is.
Having two fans going will help a lot!
Another thing are the air grilles. Some have very thin slots. Very poor air flow. The Dometic and Norcold grilles have large vent spacing which is a blessing but also a curse. With these grilles so low, they can get road spray and corrosion entering to the fridge. A trade off I suppose!

[John Linck]

Originally Posted by RV Doctor

The Dometic and Norcold grilles have large vent spacing which is a blessing but also a curse. With these grilles so low, they can get road spray and corrosion entering to the fridge. A trade off I suppose!

Tony,

I also have concerns that road spray enters the frig vents. Older trailers show lots of corrosion in these compartments. I wonder how much water comes in at 60 mph in a rain storm. I am considering putting RV gutters around the vents to lessen the flow of water in. It will look a bit silly, but may help. Its on my list, but not at the top.

John

[RV Doctor]

John. The adding of gutter extrusions is a great idea!
I work on a lot of Horse Trailers with Living Quarters. They all have undercounter mounted fridges and have huge issues with corrosion. Most of my customer need to have me clean the burner every year. They are rusted beyond belief. The rust closes off the burner slots and they fail to operate.

Maybe look at an AC/DC refer? Norcold and Novacool have some nice models.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by RV Doctor

Dave. I hear what you are saying about a potential heat source but one of the most, if not, THE most important installation rules of any appliance involving burning fuel is Carbon Monoxide.
As an RV Service Technician we are responsible for the safe and proper installation of everything in an RV. Not just small Fiberglass trailers.
The first rule of any appliance installation involving combustibles is they MUST be vented to the exterior of the coach.
So in the case of a furnace, water heater or fridge, if there is spent fuel being created, there MUST be adequate ventilation to OUTSIDE of the living area.
This is why when you purchase a new, non DIY RV, the regulations for installation are followed implicitly.
All licenced, Journeyman RV Technicians must follow the complete RVIA code for everything they do in an RV. It is the law! In Canada, we have the CSA Z-240 code.
Also, when an RV manufacturer designs and builds an RV, say Bigfoot. Every aspect of that construction MUST meet, not guidelines, but regulations.
Carbon Monoxide is serious business! Just imagine if there was a damper on every fridge installation. Slide this way for heat and the other way for no heat. You just can’t have CMOX entering a living space. Headaches, dizziness, vomiting, nausea and even death come from CMOX poisoning.
Every day, in my business, we see DIY disasters! Propane lines and installations done dangerously wrong. Electrical wiring which is dangerous and well, you get it. Years ago, I had a customer call for quote on a BBQ connection job on his 300K Diesel Pusher Motorhome. He felt my quote was too expensive and did it DIY. He connected onto the high pressure line tank and ran the line, rubber garden hose to the low pressure connection. Biggest problem is the rubber hose couldn’t take the 250psi tank pressure and the line blew apart as he was driving. Filled the entire basement of the coach with LP. Fortunately they got the gas off and ventilated the basement. He had me rip out his DIY installation and do it to code. We preach safety first always! In this Google and YouTube age, everyone says “I can do that” and I applaud the DIY spirit but when it comes to things that CAN KILL YOU it is better to have someone who has earned their living by doing the job the RIGHT way and the SAFE way. According to the code and manufacturers specs. Sorry to ramble but it’s a sore spot for me! I’ll shut up now.

Since when and where does RVIA constitute a legal authority? As I see it they are a club which you pay to join. Legal code and manufacturers specs are readily available to competent people everywhere, even those who don't work in an RV shop.

Of course you should hire help or get advice if you need it,and not everyone is technically inclined.
I applaud the "professional" spirit, but when it comes to things that CAN KILL YOU it is best to check which of your local professionals is competent! (it ain't all of them, believe me)...Your Doctor has a diploma and a license, why does he need malpractice insurance?

I learned to read before I started school, and it has served me well.
Like me, millions of competent people everywhere have built cars in shops which they built themselves next to houses they remodeled themselves.
Construction... from concrete footings to shingles, and all in between.
Automotive..... from chassis to body work,to drivetrain,etc.
Household...... from appliances to lawnmowers.

Three years ago I installed a new high efficiency HVAC system in my house. I sleep well at night knowing it was done right and that I have the extra $4500 tucked away. I had to order the components from out of state because local dealers sell only with "professional" installation.

Sure, I too know people who could destroy an anvil with a rubber mallet.
Sure you can cut your leg off with a powersaw, when you just can't with a handsaw, but I can't tell you how often I have repaired RVIA certified trailers which were not assembled correctly.

FYI, DIY is alive and well and living in your neighbor's garage, in spite of those who want to legislate them out of doing their own work.
Sorry to ramble, but its a sore spot for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pWSwfVDiq8

[RV Doctor]

Floyd. Things are very different in Canada than the US from the motor vehicle service regulations as established by the Federal Government and Provincial Regulatory Associations.
I am not completely informed or entirely sure of the laws in the US for the RV Service Industry. I can only speak for Canada. In Canada the laws mandate the Industry from a professional aspect. Not a DIY view. Really anyone can Service their own car, truck RV etc.
If you go to any Car Dealer, Auto Repair Shop, RV Dealer or RV Repair Shop in Canada, every technician is to be fully licensed in order to work on a motor vehicle...... Any Motor Vehicle. There is nothing stopping a private individual from killing themselves with CMOX or blowing up their RV with an improperly installed LP system. My perspective is purely from a professional viewpoint.
I was asked an opinion on a matter and I gave him my opinion. That’s all. Sorry if it came out as being anything less than helpful.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by RV Doctor

Floyd.
I am not entirely sure of the laws in the US for the RV Service Industry. I can only speak for Canada. In Canada the laws mandate the Industry from a professional aspect. Not a DIY view.
If you go to any Car Dealer, Auto Repair Shop, RV Dealer or RV Repair Shop every technician is to be licensed in order to work on a motor vehicle. There is nothing stopping an individual from killing themselves with CMOX or blowing up their RV with an improperly installed LP system.
I was asked by the OP an opinion on a matter and I gave him my opinion. That’s all.

Not here, I respect your opinion and concerns, but I too merely expressed my opinion and concerns.

If you worked in that industry, you know that there are licensed techs which can't keep a job because of shoddy work. I'm sure you know some that you would not trust to work on your own equipment.
It seems clear that you are conscientious and competent, but you know better than to claim that your license alone makes it so.

I'm not casting any aspersions here, just defending and encouraging people not to be afraid to educate themselves and take responsibility for those things which they can learn to do for themselves, perhaps with good advice and a little help.
Not everyone who wants a project done is looking for a career.

I was 16 when I overhauled my first engine, I borrowed the manuals and sought advice on things I didn't understand. It took a lot longer than it would for an experienced mechanic, but it ran great!
Heck, I did the job with the engine in the car! (intimidated at the prospect of pulling it) Three months later I had to swap out the transmission.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by floyd

I'm not casting any aspersions here, just defending and encouraging people not to be afraid to educate themselves and take responsibility for those things which they can learn to do for themselves, perhaps with good advice and a little help.

And, what if that advice is not good advice?