Power usages

[jwcolby54]

C'mon bob, it wouldn't cost a dime to install the power system next to the batteries. Bigger gauge wire does cost. Ruining my batteries DOES have an impact on my pocketbook. I bought a specific set of batteries, dual golf cart 6 v. I did so in order to be able to get X amps out. Except that between the charger, wire size and run length, it is unlikely it will ever be charged more than 90% full, 80% is far more likely. That has an impact on my life and pocket book.

And I get that no one her cares.

[SharonM]

John, I care. A LOT. We have nearly identical trailers (mine is a 2011 Scamp 16 floor plan 4). I don't have your knowledge whatsoever of these issues, but I do wish my system was located near the batteries up front (I am planning on 2 6-volt Trojans. So far I've only purchased the double battery box). I want solar. I will be living IN my Scamp full-time as soon as my house sells. Somewhere along the line I'm hoping to find a smart RV/solar/whatever shop to get me set up. I'm wondering if I'll even find such an animal.

Sharon

[jwcolby54]

+1 for cares a lot Sharon.

In fact I am living in my Scamp as well, though I am given a site in a state park with AC. What that means in real terms is that, to this point, I am depending on my PD charger to keep my batteries charged.

PD tells me that they aren't ever going to do so, thus my search for the technology to do it around the built-in charger.

In fact it is probably charging them to the 80% point. Which is not going to immediately ruin them. However I do not have the charge wizard thingie. Just putting the wizard on them will likely do what they refer to as "de-sulfonation".

Since my batteries are not (yet) sulfonated, what this really does is cause the solution to boil, which keeps it mixed. The solution in the battery will separate and this process "mixes it up".

Folks in this thread and elsewhere have talked about how bad "boiling" is, in fact it is a necessity, just to keep the solution mixed.

Boiling endlessly is bad. ALL boiling is causing a certain amount of the water to break down into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, some of which escapes (in a non-sealed battery), which "uses up" the water. That is why we have to add distilled water to our wet cell batteries, to replace the water "boiled off". All of that is quite normal however, not necessarily a bad thing, only in excess.

By the way, the AGM (glass mat) batteries also boil, however they are sealed such that the gasses cannot escape and, over time, the hydrogen and oxygen recombine to form the water that was broken down originally. Thus (hopefully) no fluid loss.

Unsealed batteries can be charged much faster than AGM batteries exactly because the gasses can escape. We just have to add water occasionally. AGM batteries, being sealed, cause internal pressure as they charge (and boil) and thus if you charge them too rapidly, the pressure will get high enough to rupture the battery, obviously not a good thing!

There is a whole lot of myth and magic in the minds of our members. None of this is magic, it is just physics and chemistry at work. The BATTERY MANUFACTURERS tell us how to charge their batteries. Most of the charger manufacturers ignore the recommendations. Or perhaps under charge in order to reduce the boiling which reduces the maintenance (replacing the water). But over charging and under charging are both bad for the batteries.

Not to mention that we want a full charge because we can only draw down a battery to the 50% mark before pretty serious damage starts to happen. Even 50% is not a magic number, there is some damage occurring already at that point, but it gets REALLY bad if drawn down below that. Stopping use while 60% full would be better.

So... if my battery is a 220 ah battery, and is fully charged, then I can pull 110 AH out of it before I hit the 50% mark. If my charger only ever charges the battery to 80% then instead of 50% of the "available" capacity, suddenly I only get 30% of the capacity because I am starting at the 20% discharged state. Suddenly I only get ~77 AH before I hit the 50% mark. I am not starting from fully charged any more.

I don't know about you, but that affects my life and my pocket book.

As you might have read in these threads, there is a lot of "good enough for me" kind of comments. To which I reply, "I'm happy for you." but good enough for you is not necessarily good enough for me. I paid for 110 AH!!!

At the beginning of this thread we were discussing Amp Hours that we each use. My AH rating / day is probably about 20-30. If I am pulling 30 AH per day and my battery is giving me 110 AH before I have to stop using it, then I am good for 3.6 days. If it is giving me 77 AH because my charger isn't getting it full, then it is giving me 2.5 days before I have to stop using it.

This is a real effect. I am not going to make excuses for the companies doing stupid stuff. Scamp should place the charger at the wall next to the battery. They don't. That is a BAD decision. PD should listen to the battery manufacturers and charge the batteries all the way up. They don't.

Like yourself, I do care.

The question then is, what can I do about it? NOT ask here because all I have gotten so far is yada yada excuses excuses good enough for my purposes...

Sigh.

[Bob Miller]

Hmmmm

I went out to my Hunter Compact-II, that I installed a PD-4045 and a new Interstate Group 27 deep cell battery in about two years ago, and found the charge voltage at 13.38 volts. I disconnected the shore cable and it dropped to 13.32 volts. I then turned on enough lights to get a 1.5 amp load to bleed off the surface charge and, 30 minutes later went back and found the no-load battery voltage to be 13.28 volts. In as much as full charge for this battery is rated at about 13.30 volts per Interstate, I consider this to be about a 95% charge.

I have read that "Full Charge" is like standing on the tip of a needle. Any thing you do will tip you off of it, but that was just one writers opinion.

FWIW: I consider RV'ing something to enjoy with what is there, and not something to worry about for what might not be there at the nth degree of perfection. 90% with 0% worry trumps worrying how to get that extra 10% that I might have even have paid for, but can get by without just fine.

As my other twin brother Bob said
"Don't Worry, Be Happy"

[Glenn Baglo]

I've got the battery monitor that came with the trailer, and I've got a volt meter that you plug into a lighter and I've got a hydrometer, and, I've come to the conclusion that I should just get rid of it all.
Then, I wouldn't spend so much time worrying.

[hotfishtacos]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

....Sigh.

Colby, I'm with you! Well stated! Another example would be where a tire manufacturer recommended that you run at 40psi. Instead, many people will run at 32psi instead stating that it works for them. To each his own. ...and some people buy 4WD and never use it... ....and on and on...

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I've got the battery monitor that came with the trailer, and I've got a volt meter that you plug into a lighter and I've got a hydrometer, and, I've come to the conclusion that I should just get rid of it all.
Then, I wouldn't spend so much time worrying.

And you should! If it doesn't matter to you then it doesn't matter to you.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Hmmmm

I went out to my Hunter Compact-II, that I installed a PD-4045 and a new Interstate Group 27 deep cell battery in about two years ago, and found the charge voltage at 13.38 volts. I disconnected the shore cable and it dropped to 13.32 volts. I then turned on enough lights to get a 1.5 amp load to bleed off the surface charge and, 30 minutes later went back and found the no-load battery voltage to be 13.28 volts. In as much as full charge for this battery is rated at about 13.30 volts per Interstate, I consider this to be about a 95% charge.

I have read that "Full Charge" is like standing on the tip of a needle. Any thing you do will tip you off of it, but that was just one writers opinion.

FWIW: I consider RV'ing something to enjoy with what is there, and not something to worry about for what might not be there at the nth degree of perfection. 90% with 0% worry trumps worrying how to get that extra 10% that I might have even have paid for, but can get by without just fine.

As my other twin brother Bob said
"Don't Worry, Be Happy"

If you are not going to read what interstate actually says, then you can't expect to know the actual state.!

[Bob Miller]

1st... I agree with Glen, don't worry and be happy. I have a voltminder just so I can tell how many more DVD's I can watch.

I just don't think it is fair to see someone bashing what work fine for the 98th percentile, just not for them.

But the tire pressure example is not the same..... That impinges on safety issues, just look into the infamous story of the Corvair & it's peculiar tire pressure requirements.

And if an underinflated tire overheats and fails on the hiway, that can put others (including Moi) at risk.

[jwcolby54]

Well Bob, I apologize for that last comment. I went to their web site and there is NO information whatsoever, and dead links. You can't read what the manufacturer won't provide.

Further googling for interstate has a bunch of "just use Trojan's data".

LOL, well good luck with that.

[jwcolby54]

I agree with Glen too as I clearly stated. He should throw it all away and not worry. You too!

[jwcolby54]

Bob, what exactly does "working fine" mean? Replacing your battery every three years? That is working fine for two and a half years. Of course the battery should last twice that long.

You do know by the way that 24 lbs in the ford explorer tires "worked fine" for waaaaay more than 98% of the owners!

But hey, "Be happy, don't worry!"

Your "other bob" also smoked a bunch of Ganja. I had to stop that a long time ago!

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Well Bob, I apologize for that last comment. I went to their web site and there is NO information whatsoever, and dead links. You can't read what the manufacturer won't provide.

Further googling for interstate has a bunch of "just use Trojan's data".

LOL, well good luck with that.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Interstate Battery Customer Service 866-842-5360

[Byron Kinnaman]

Gee Whiz John.
Calm down a bit.
Go talk to few real engineers that actually design stuff for manufacturing. You'll soon discover or NOT, that all designs are a compromise. Things are done for reasons and we don't really know the fully story unless you were in on the design review meeting. The trouble with most backyard engineers they have no idea why things were done that way, but they know better.
Then they make changes and bad things happen. You have no idea how many times I've seen this happen.

[mszabo]

I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. I just used the light switch.
When my batteries goes bad, I just go buy new ones.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Gee Whiz John.
Calm down a bit.
Go talk to few real engineers that actually design stuff for manufacturing.

Byron, I design software for a living, I know all about compromises.

I also know that a few small easy changes can add up to to real solid improvements. I know that I always analyze the bottlenecks to find out where I can make the most improvements with the least work.

I know that there are a handful of companies designing after market chargers and inverters because there is a market for systems that actually work.

Which implies something don't ya think?

If the PD in my scamp did it's job correctly (notice I didn't say "good enough for you") would I be having this conversation with you?

"Is good enough for 98% of the population" is:
1) Meaningless
2) Useless
3) Not something I would use to bolster my arguments.

98% of the population doesn't know that they are replacing their batteries more often than they should have to. It wears out and they go replace it. They grumble that three years isn't a long time but...

I actually looked at the interstate site where it MENTIONED that the average battery lasted 3 years... It has ZERO information other than sales junk.

Byron, I have an education which allows me to, and I have read enough to understand the issues involved.

I do not expect anyone with an attitude of "don't worry" to participate. Get rid of your meters! I encourage that!

And for the record, I am living in my scamp, in a state park. I am enjoying my scamp.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by mszabo

I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. I just used the light switch.
When my batteries goes bad, I just go buy new ones.

ROTFL. Yep, you do. So do the other 98% of the population!

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Byron, I design software for a living, I know all about compromises.

I also know that a few small easy changes can add up to to real solid improvements. I know that I always analyze the bottlenecks to find out where I can make the most improvements with the least work.

I know that there are a handful of companies designing after market chargers and inverters because there is a market for systems that actually work.

Which implies something don't ya think?

If the PD in my scamp did it's job correctly (notice I didn't say "good enough for you") would I be having this conversation with you?

"Is good enough for 98% of the population" is:
1) Meaningless
2) Useless
3) Not something I would use to bolster my arguments.

98% of the population doesn't know that they are replacing their batteries more often than they should have to. It wears out and they go replace it. They grumble that three years isn't a long time but...

I actually looked at the interstate site where it MENTIONED that the average battery lasted 3 years... It has ZERO information other than sales junk.

Byron, I have an education which allows me to, and I have read enough to understand the issues involved.

I do not expect anyone with an attitude of "don't worry" to participate. Get rid of your meters! I encourage that!

And for the record, I am living in my scamp, in a state park. I am enjoying my scamp.

From your posts it doesn't sound like it.
Let ask one more question then I'm through with this thread.

How many variables are involved in charging and using a battery?

[Bob Miller]

One day, many, many years ago, I was graduating from Navy Boot camp in San Diego. Of course my parents came to watch and, as my 80 man company marched past the reviewing stand a parent standing next to mine said "Look at that, our Johnny is the only one in step with the music".

I guess the masses hereabout must all also be out of step, including moi.....

[Glenn Baglo]

BTW. My observation that having all these measuring instruments is causing me stress; I reached that conclusion before this thread even started.