Power usages - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 10-04-2013, 11:04 AM   #15
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Furthermore the PO that put the converter/charger under the left rear dinette seat is named SCAMP. Wonder how many 1000s of trailers are built like that.... Hmmmm.


FYI. If anybody cares.
I entered the wonderful world of electronics in about 1954 working alongside my father in his radio and TV repair shop. Then off the military (AF) and electronics school, ground radio maintenance, then off to business and college (EE). Until retirement about 4 years ago. Lots of fun designing stuff.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:24 AM   #16
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Oh? So you think it would be ok if used a 1 amp charge controller attached to my 4 amp solar panel?
...
Byron, read again what I stated, "most people don't have an issue with incorrectly sizing the controller." ..however, for you a 1 amp controller for your 4 amp panel would be perfect!...trust me!...
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:24 PM   #17
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LOL, Norm, no it is not going to handle 50 amps very well. Can you say smoke?

My point is that I never said that, however someone else in one of the threads said their alternator was going to recharge the battery in 15 minutes. 10 ga is common for these lines. To recharge a battery in 15 minutes is going to take HUGE currents.

This is a different kind of smoke as in "and mirrors". However I would bet my PD charger in the Scamp does use 10 Ga wire and I would bet money that there is at LEAST 15 feet between the PD charger and the battery. As the current goes up, so goes the voltage drop.

The battery manufacturer whose link I provided says they recommend 14.8 volts for the bulk charge, There is just no way that the PD will deliver anything close to that to my battery, EVEN WITH your wizard.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:27 PM   #18
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Furthermore the PO that put the converter/charger under the left rear dinette seat is named SCAMP. Wonder how many 1000s of trailers are built like that.... Hmmmm.
Thousands. Which doesn't mean it is done right.

How many Ford Explorers were built that rolled over and killed people. Just because something is done, doesn't make it right.

I get that no one here cares.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:47 PM   #19
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"I get that no one here cares."
and
"Thousands. Which doesn't mean it is done right."

Cares about what?????
Is there something about power chassis being installed under dinette seats that is going to have even a minor impact on our lives or pocketbooks ????

And while some may argue that it's not the most optimal location, that doesn't mean that it was done wrong either.

If FGRV's was only built the "right" way I doubt if most of us could afford one..... Witness several recent makes that tried and are no longer with us..... vs. those that have been doing it "wrong" and have been her for 40+ years.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:04 PM   #20
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Unhappy

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CAUTION... Verbal Prozac follows:

Fortunately some things work well in practice, if not on paper. I have used #10 & #8 wire for battery charging lines from vehicle alternators to coach battery's for about 40 years now without every finding that my coach battery wasn't being charged adequately.

"Don't Worry, Be Happy"
Bob, here is what Trojan says about the subject:

Table 2. Charger Voltage Settings for Flooded Batteries


System Voltage
Charger Voltage Setting
12V
Daily Charge
14.8
Float
13.2
Equalize
15.5

As for "moving X amps through the wire" that is determined by three things:

1) The battery (dis) charge state
2) The charger capability
3) The size of the wire

So if a battery is entirely discharged then it is going to accept far more current than it would if it were fully charged.

If the battery charger is capable, it will source far more current than if it is not capable.

If the wire gauge is too small, then the voltage drop will be large, in and of itself limiting (to some extent) the actual power delivered into the battery because a bunch of power is being radiated off the wire in heat (and smoke).

And you can talk till the cows come home about "adequately charging" the battery but those words are simply meaningless, or at the very least only contextually significant.

Adequately charged to you could mean it will deliver enough power to get you through the night. To me it means delivering 110 AH from the time I start using the (fully charged) battery until the time I start charging it back up.

I am simply not interested in "adequately charged" I am interested in "correctly charged". Correctly charged is NOT contextual, it has a specific meaning for a specific battery. FOR MY BATTERIES, CORRECTLY charged means that when fully charged they will deliver 110 AH to the halfway point where I must stop using them or begin to damage them. FOR ME, CORRECTLY CHARGED means that the charger is CAPABLE of fully charging my battery.

I want MY batteries CORRECTLY charged. I don't give a rat's patuty about your batteries.

I can guarantee that a 10 gauge wire will NEVER CORRECTLY charge my battery (or yours) although it does apparently "adequately" charge your batteries.

I can also guarantee you that the PD charger (even with the wizard) will NEVER fully charge anyone's batteries. Trojan tells you what you need to deliver to FULLY charge their batteries and PD tells you that they do not deliver that. PD tells you that right in their Wizard literature!

And I get that no one here cares.

For most it seems "adequate" is good enough.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:13 PM   #21
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C'mon bob, it wouldn't cost a dime to install the power system next to the batteries. Bigger gauge wire does cost. Ruining my batteries DOES have an impact on my pocketbook. I bought a specific set of batteries, dual golf cart 6 v. I did so in order to be able to get X amps out. Except that between the charger, wire size and run length, it is unlikely it will ever be charged more than 90% full, 80% is far more likely. That has an impact on my life and pocket book.

And I get that no one her cares.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:29 PM   #22
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Name: Sharon
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John, I care. A LOT. We have nearly identical trailers (mine is a 2011 Scamp 16 floor plan 4). I don't have your knowledge whatsoever of these issues, but I do wish my system was located near the batteries up front (I am planning on 2 6-volt Trojans. So far I've only purchased the double battery box). I want solar. I will be living IN my Scamp full-time as soon as my house sells. Somewhere along the line I'm hoping to find a smart RV/solar/whatever shop to get me set up. I'm wondering if I'll even find such an animal.

Sharon
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:23 PM   #23
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+1 for cares a lot Sharon.

In fact I am living in my Scamp as well, though I am given a site in a state park with AC. What that means in real terms is that, to this point, I am depending on my PD charger to keep my batteries charged.

PD tells me that they aren't ever going to do so, thus my search for the technology to do it around the built-in charger.

In fact it is probably charging them to the 80% point. Which is not going to immediately ruin them. However I do not have the charge wizard thingie. Just putting the wizard on them will likely do what they refer to as "de-sulfonation".

Since my batteries are not (yet) sulfonated, what this really does is cause the solution to boil, which keeps it mixed. The solution in the battery will separate and this process "mixes it up".

Folks in this thread and elsewhere have talked about how bad "boiling" is, in fact it is a necessity, just to keep the solution mixed.

Boiling endlessly is bad. ALL boiling is causing a certain amount of the water to break down into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, some of which escapes (in a non-sealed battery), which "uses up" the water. That is why we have to add distilled water to our wet cell batteries, to replace the water "boiled off". All of that is quite normal however, not necessarily a bad thing, only in excess.

By the way, the AGM (glass mat) batteries also boil, however they are sealed such that the gasses cannot escape and, over time, the hydrogen and oxygen recombine to form the water that was broken down originally. Thus (hopefully) no fluid loss.

Unsealed batteries can be charged much faster than AGM batteries exactly because the gasses can escape. We just have to add water occasionally. AGM batteries, being sealed, cause internal pressure as they charge (and boil) and thus if you charge them too rapidly, the pressure will get high enough to rupture the battery, obviously not a good thing!

There is a whole lot of myth and magic in the minds of our members. None of this is magic, it is just physics and chemistry at work. The BATTERY MANUFACTURERS tell us how to charge their batteries. Most of the charger manufacturers ignore the recommendations. Or perhaps under charge in order to reduce the boiling which reduces the maintenance (replacing the water). But over charging and under charging are both bad for the batteries.

Not to mention that we want a full charge because we can only draw down a battery to the 50% mark before pretty serious damage starts to happen. Even 50% is not a magic number, there is some damage occurring already at that point, but it gets REALLY bad if drawn down below that. Stopping use while 60% full would be better.

So... if my battery is a 220 ah battery, and is fully charged, then I can pull 110 AH out of it before I hit the 50% mark. If my charger only ever charges the battery to 80% then instead of 50% of the "available" capacity, suddenly I only get 30% of the capacity because I am starting at the 20% discharged state. Suddenly I only get ~77 AH before I hit the 50% mark. I am not starting from fully charged any more.

I don't know about you, but that affects my life and my pocket book.

As you might have read in these threads, there is a lot of "good enough for me" kind of comments. To which I reply, "I'm happy for you." but good enough for you is not necessarily good enough for me. I paid for 110 AH!!!

At the beginning of this thread we were discussing Amp Hours that we each use. My AH rating / day is probably about 20-30. If I am pulling 30 AH per day and my battery is giving me 110 AH before I have to stop using it, then I am good for 3.6 days. If it is giving me 77 AH because my charger isn't getting it full, then it is giving me 2.5 days before I have to stop using it.

This is a real effect. I am not going to make excuses for the companies doing stupid stuff. Scamp should place the charger at the wall next to the battery. They don't. That is a BAD decision. PD should listen to the battery manufacturers and charge the batteries all the way up. They don't.

Like yourself, I do care.

The question then is, what can I do about it? NOT ask here because all I have gotten so far is yada yada excuses excuses good enough for my purposes...

Sigh.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:25 PM   #24
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Hmmmm

I went out to my Hunter Compact-II, that I installed a PD-4045 and a new Interstate Group 27 deep cell battery in about two years ago, and found the charge voltage at 13.38 volts. I disconnected the shore cable and it dropped to 13.32 volts. I then turned on enough lights to get a 1.5 amp load to bleed off the surface charge and, 30 minutes later went back and found the no-load battery voltage to be 13.28 volts. In as much as full charge for this battery is rated at about 13.30 volts per Interstate, I consider this to be about a 95% charge.

I have read that "Full Charge" is like standing on the tip of a needle. Any thing you do will tip you off of it, but that was just one writers opinion.

FWIW: I consider RV'ing something to enjoy with what is there, and not something to worry about for what might not be there at the nth degree of perfection. 90% with 0% worry trumps worrying how to get that extra 10% that I might have even have paid for, but can get by without just fine.

As my other twin brother Bob said
"Don't Worry, Be Happy"
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:31 PM   #25
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I've got the battery monitor that came with the trailer, and I've got a volt meter that you plug into a lighter and I've got a hydrometer, and, I've come to the conclusion that I should just get rid of it all.
Then, I wouldn't spend so much time worrying.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #26
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....Sigh.
Colby, I'm with you! Well stated! Another example would be where a tire manufacturer recommended that you run at 40psi. Instead, many people will run at 32psi instead stating that it works for them. To each his own. ...and some people buy 4WD and never use it... ....and on and on...
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:45 PM   #27
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I've got the battery monitor that came with the trailer, and I've got a volt meter that you plug into a lighter and I've got a hydrometer, and, I've come to the conclusion that I should just get rid of it all.
Then, I wouldn't spend so much time worrying.
And you should! If it doesn't matter to you then it doesn't matter to you.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:48 PM   #28
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Hmmmm

I went out to my Hunter Compact-II, that I installed a PD-4045 and a new Interstate Group 27 deep cell battery in about two years ago, and found the charge voltage at 13.38 volts. I disconnected the shore cable and it dropped to 13.32 volts. I then turned on enough lights to get a 1.5 amp load to bleed off the surface charge and, 30 minutes later went back and found the no-load battery voltage to be 13.28 volts. In as much as full charge for this battery is rated at about 13.30 volts per Interstate, I consider this to be about a 95% charge.

I have read that "Full Charge" is like standing on the tip of a needle. Any thing you do will tip you off of it, but that was just one writers opinion.

FWIW: I consider RV'ing something to enjoy with what is there, and not something to worry about for what might not be there at the nth degree of perfection. 90% with 0% worry trumps worrying how to get that extra 10% that I might have even have paid for, but can get by without just fine.

As my other twin brother Bob said
"Don't Worry, Be Happy"
If you are not going to read what interstate actually says, then you can't expect to know the actual state.!
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