Preparing a 1991 Scamp 16

[honda03842]

Tom and Jared,

I intend to maintain Preparing a 1991 Scamp and I suspect will add to it after the Newfoundland trip.

Ken,

I purchased most of my 20 or so plastic trays from Walmarts, definitely the ones that look like baskets. I also have 3 from RV Widgets Works. He makes custom containers and has some standard parts as well.

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Tom and Jared,

I intend to maintain Preparing a 1991 Scamp and I suspect will add to it after the Newfoundland trip. .......

Yea!

[honda03842]

Off to Newfoundland. There are a couple of little updates on improvements and a new weigh in for our trailer.


Tow Vehicle/Trailer Setup Improvement. One of the important tow vehicle dimensions is the distance from the rear axle to the ball. The distance for our Honda CRV was 38”. By drilling an additional hole in our slide-in ball mount, we were able to reduce this distance to 36”. This is an easy way to improve towing margin. This is one of the many little things one can do that enhance the towing experience.


Trailer Weigh In. We left for Newfoundland this morning and weighed our fully loaded trailer before we left at the town's transfer station. The trailer's axle weight is 2440 lbs and the tongue weight is 189 lbs.


The axle weight is about 200 lbs more than 2 years ago and the tongue weight about 10 lbs less. . This is partially due to the addition of 5 under floor storage compartments and more water than normal in the tank.


Our tongue weight is typically between 185 and 200 lbs. This puts the tongue at about 8% of the trailer weight. For the record we have a full pantry, 3/4 tank of water, full propane tank, and closet air conditioner. Both grey and black tanks are empty.


Rock Shield Supports. Our new rock shield supports have held the rock shield open since we built them. In that interval the satellite dish has blown over twice even though it was spiked into the ground.


Canadian Phone Service. We added a rider to our Verizon Phones. For our trip we added 1000 minutes per month of Canadian calls, unlimited minutes to the USA. The cost for each of our phones was $12.53 a month. We did not extend our data service to Canada and will simply use Canadian Wi-fi for data and publishing our trip report.

Safely at Sunset Point Campground in Harrington. ME overlooking the water. It's a Passport park and we're their first customer of the year. $13.97 for the night. We stopped at a little place to eat in Harrington, Scovils Millside Dining and split an overwhelming seafood platter.

On the road and smiling wide.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Off to Newfoundland. There are a couple of little updates on improvements and a new weigh in for our trailer.


Tow Vehicle/Trailer Setup Improvement. One of the important tow vehicle dimensions is the distance from the rear axle to the ball. The distance for our Honda CRV was 38”. By drilling an additional hole in our slide-in ball mount, we were able to reduce this distance to 36”. This is an easy way to improve towing margin. This is one of the many little things one can do that enhance the towing experience.

Don't forget to eat a cod tongue sandwich for me, Norm!

And when you have a chance:

As you know, my tug/tow combo is very similar in size and weight to yours, and so I'm interested in your rationale for the mod you describe above. My understanding of its effect is that it increases the load on the tug's rear axle by placing the fulcrum of the lever closer to the coupler. It would seem to follow that the front axle would be "lighter'- have you noticed any increase in nose float?

Since you're increasing rear axle load anyway (and if greater stability is what you're after) it seems to me that better bang-for-the-buck might be achieved by increasing tongue weight. A hundred and ninety pounds seems low for a 2400 pound camptrailer...though boats ride pretty well at that ratio.

Have I missed the point here entirely???


Francesca

[Jared J]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Don't forget to eat a cod tongue sandwich for me, Norm!

And when you have a chance:

As you know, my tug/tow combo is very similar in size and weight to yours, and so I'm interested in your rationale for the mod you describe above. My understanding of its effect is that it increases the load on the tug's rear axle by placing the fulcrum of the lever closer to the coupler. It would seem to follow that the front axle would be "lighter'- have you noticed any increase in nose float?

Since you're increasing rear axle load anyway (and if greater stability is what you're after) it seems to me that better bang-for-the-buck might be achieved by increasing tongue weight. A hundred and ninety pounds seems low for a 2400 pound camptrailer...though boats ride pretty well at that ratio.

Have I missed the point here entirely???

Francesca

They added weight to the front end by decreasing the distance from the rear axle to the ball. Their tongue weight is low, but with their vehicle, I'm sure it's a trade off that has to be made.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Jared J

Their tongue weight is low, but with their vehicle, I'm sure it's a trade off that has to be made.

I suspect Jared maybe correct. Having the same trailer as the OP in layout and age that is packed lighter than the OP's and as such weighs less on the axle I did try when I first occurred the trailer to stay at 200lb or slightly under tongue weight but found the trailer to be unstable at speeds over 55 mph or when traveling down a hill, even though I am towing with a heavier vehicle than the OP & at a lower axle weight and thus a higher % on the tongue. The OP as far as am aware has a anti sway bar on their trailer that I would suggest may account for why they have not experienced any adversities while towing with such a low tongue weight.

[honda03842]

Good thoughts. First we have towed 2000 miles at speeds to 60 mph without an anti-sway bar and never experienced sway. We never added an anti-sway bar to counter sway. When we asked about sway bars on another trailer site, we were told it was nice to have an anti-sway bar in an emergency, cheap insurance was the phrase.

Ideally I would like to have all the tongue weight over the rear axle. As the tongue weight gets nearer the axle it reduces the lift on the front. Think of a see saw.. when you're near the pivot point on a see saw, in this case the rear axle. you can never lift the other person.

As well as reducing the effect of the tongue weight on the front axle, the effect of side forces on the rear wheels is reduced.

Though people laugh at the VW 5th wheel video, the tongue weight is right where you want it distributed to both the axles evenly.

As to my tongue weight of 8% it's worked fine for 6 years. Maybe it's my tow vehicle (lol)

Our camp sight in Pictou NS

[honda03842]

"They added weight to the front end by decreasing the distance from the rear axle to the ball. Their tongue weight is low, but with their vehicle, I'm sure it's a trade off that has to be made." Jared

Jared shortening the distance to the rear axle has nothing to do with our specific tow vehicle. Moving weight towards the rear axle, within axle limits, should be positive for any towing situation.

Here's a question for the 15% WD towers. If you transfer ball weight to the tow vehicle's front axle and the trailer's axle with a WD system, effectively is there now less than 15% weight on the ball? Does this system now work because of the anti-sway characteristics of WD systems? There is effectively no longer the magic 15% on the ball?

I've never had a WD and know nothing about WD, just wondering.

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by honda03842

..........
Here's a question for the 15% WD towers. If you transfer ball weight to the tow vehicle's front axle and the trailer's axle with a WD system, effectively is there now less than 15% weight on the ball? Does this system now work because of the anti-sway characteristics of WD systems? There is effectively no longer the magic 15% on the ball?..........

I've never used a WD hitch, but from the analyses that I've seen on trailer sway, the magic of the 15% is not the downward pressure on the ball. The 15% rule allows one to estimate how the trailer mass is distributed with respect to the trailers vertical axis of rotation (an imaginary line extending from the ground out the roof). When the trailer sways, it rotates about this axis.
http://towingstabilitystudies.co.uk/...-simulator.php

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

I've never used a WD hitch, but from the analyses that I've seen on trailer sway, the magic of the 15% is not the downward pressure on the ball. The 15% rule allows one to estimate how the trailer mass is distributed with respect to the trailers vertical axis of rotation (an imaginary line extending from the ground out the roof). When the trailer sways, it rotates about this axis.
Bailey of Bristol - Caravan Stability Studies

This is the way I understand it, too. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how concentrating the (low) tongue weight at the rear axle helps with stability. While it might reduce front end float I think it will also make the rear squat more- wouldn't that result in the same high-nose effect???

By the way, I think the VW vid not relevant to this discussion- that setup puts the "tongue" load (more commonly called the pin with that kind of setup) just about between and equidistant from both axles, certainly ideal but more like a fiver than a bumper pull.

Francesca

[honda03842]

Tom, I have always found the Bailey site interesting, a trailer manufacturer that studies tow vehilce/trailer setups. As far as I know all fiberglass manufacturers really stay away from the topic.

I noted about 7% as a tongue weight on their site, the importance of weight over the axle and their tow vehicle competition at 70 mph. The critical factor seems to be the location of weight with respect to the axle.

Their tow vehicle competion is always interesting, maybe a VW diesel is on the horizon for me. I'll have to start weaning Ginny off our Hondas.

Centrally loaded mass over the axles is certainly a good point. To keep things close to the axle in our Scamp we do not travel with anything in the grey or black tank.,.. also one Propane tank, one battery, no micro wave, AC right next to axle, canned goods pantry at the axle and elimination of heavy table. The improvement we could make is to reduce the fresh water we carry.

We used to have a Sunline trailer where the grey, black, freshwater and fridge were all literally over the axle. The best centralized location for all heavy items, particularly ones that can vary in content like the tanks.

Thanks for reminding me about Bailey..Norm

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by honda03842

The critical factor seems to be the location of weight with respect to the axle.

You can say that again!
Here's a Bailey demonstration of that principle:

Caravan Stability Studies - YouTube

I do wonder if the placement of the axle itself also has anything to do with things...Bailey's units seem to me to have axles closer to the center of the trailer than one sees on American units.


Francesca

[honda03842]

Go to the bailey you tube site in the previous post. As well as the stability study there are getting started with bailey walk thrus.

The bailey caravan is very impressive. Lots of little things that make even the best of the fiberhlass rigs look like "old designs"

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Go to the bailey you tube site in the previous post. As well as the stability study there are getting started with bailey walk thrus.

If yer talkin' to me, Norm, you're preaching to the choir- I've been a Bailey's fan/ stability game promoter ever since Andrew Gibbens introduced me to it in March 2011!

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

To study the effect, try this British 'caravan' (trailer) stability game - it may be called a game but it's based on real science:
Bailey of Bristol - Caravan Stability Studies

I even went so far as to make the following suggestion at the time:

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

How about adding that link to "Resources" on the home page?

But it fell on deaf ears, I guess!

Anyway, as you point out, it's very likely that your success with the lower tongue weight is due to where/how you've concentrated the weight...good for you!

Francesca

[honda03842]

Newfoundland ferry. Waiting for the midnight ferry at North Sydney, Nova Scotia

[cpaharley2008]

Wow, that thing is huge, looks like one of those cruise ships!!

[honda03842]

Jim,

They are really large but the following You tube video shows one of the Newfie ferries being tossed about.

Newfoundland Ferry in massive waves!! - YouTube

I try not to think about an event like this.

[cpaharley2008]

I'm feeling seasick already!!

[honda03842]

Jim, I think this was our 8th crossing and our smoothest by far. We barely could tell it was moving, arrived in Newfoundland just after dawn to bright sunlibht and snow in the mountains.

[honda03842]

Passport America.

On our drive to Newfoundland we've stayed at 4 Passport parks and spent between $13 and $20 a night, easily paying for our yearly membership in a week.

Two of the sites were overlooking the ocean and a third is on the Humber River.

From Deer Lake Nfld