Anyone hear of "sick camper" diagnoses?

[Kai in Seattle]

"Always wash your hands after you take them off."


Yes, of course you meant the disposable gloves, but as a stand-alone sentence, this was a hoot.


Thanks for a good chuckle!


BESt
Kai

[ZachO]

I'm already there! Not in travel mode, but I've moved into my camper for the summer. It's looking like I'll be using it even more intensely than last summer, so more things are on my mind that weren't before.

Last summer I had showers at work. So far this summer, it's looking like a lot of showers in the camper. And I'm starting to cook more like I cook at home. Instead of simple, non-messy, one-dish meals, I'm using more kinds of food and getting more dishes dirty. Much heavier use in the camper. So I'll definitely take every opportunity I can, whenever I'm out of it for a few days or more, to really clean it and air it out.

I know Mike knows more about this than me, but I also avoid anti-bacterial soap. A hospital is one thing, but for my home...I just keep things clean and try not to create super-bugs and keep my immune system strong and used to fighting stuff.
I try not to over sanitize my life.

[Kai in Seattle]

So many good points-- once you open water, use it within a day--did not know that. Dust mites--yes; launder what you can and vacuum the heck out of the rest. Handling of black hoses and tanks etc. be aware of what you're doing, of course--dispose of those disposable gloves...and wash your hands frequently--that was how I caught the norovirus, touching hand rails and an ice sculpture and then eating without washing my hands...assume that NOTHING is clean and wash frequently!


Excellent topic, timely, thanks!


BEST
Kai

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by ZachO

I know Mike knows more about this than me, but I also avoid anti-bacterial soap. A hospital is one thing, but for my home...I just keep things clean and try not to create super-bugs and keep my immune system strong and used to fighting stuff.
I try not to over sanitize my life.

We also avoid anti bacterial hand , laundry and dish soaps .
We recently had to have our septic system repaired .
The contractor mentioned that he is seeing more and more septic issues corresponding to the large increase in the use of anti bacterial cleaners and bleach. Septic system need bacteria to break down the waste and prevent drain fields from clogging.
To replace my septic system would cost between $10 to $15 K
I do believe that cleanliness is important , but I am going to achieve it with hot water and plain old soap.

[ZachO]

I sort of disregarded the water thing but it definitely deserves more of a look...what's up with that? I fill a couple 3-gallon containers from a local mountain spring for drinking water. Each one lasts me a few days. It definitely gets opened and closed back up repeatedly.

Yes, anti-bacterial...The same reason I avoid taking antibiotics unless absolutely necessary. It clears them all out, the bad and the good. And we need the good bacteria to function. No big deal for most of us who only need them maybe at most once a year, but I know some people who take them every couple months, and I know a lot of doctors still overprescribe them. I'd still rather live in a society where I can take a pill rather than die, but it comes with its own, admittedly "first-world", problems...

Anyway...

[Mike_L]

The raising of good points continues. This is a good thing! I always encourage this when addressing any situation where exposure to "biohazards is identified. The best long term solution to avoid a recurrence is the awareness fostered by discussion and understanding of what is really happening. As with most situations related to exposure to hazards, "ignorance" is the problem and knowledge the solution.

Some Additional Information for Consideration:

Vacuuming removes "particles from surfaces" but is much less effective for particles contained within soft surfaces like upholstery because the air flow "through" these materials is usually insufficient to entrain dust particles. Dust particles often have bacteria, which are much smaller, attached to their surfaces. Unless the vacuum has a HEPA filter, many of the smaller particles and hence the bacteria, pass right through the filter so the vacuum acts to "spread" the hazard.
Soap and water is more effective as it penetrates soft surfaces to better remove and inactivate the bacteria without dispersing them through the air and fostering their spread.

The norovirus (norwalk virus) is the most common cause of gastointestinal disease characterized by nausea, vomiting, diarrhea etc. It is a faecal (sewage) organism. It is transmitted by direct contact from an infected person or a surface they have touched, ingestion of contaminated food or water etc. Outbreaks occur on ships, in hospitals and other institutions because people are in close contact with each other and this aids transfer if someone is sick. One infected employee at a restaurant can spread the organism to many via the food they prepare.

Many organisms are susceptible to sunlight but for this to happen the sunlight must contact the organism directly for a sufficient period of time and with sufficient intensity. Subsurface organisms won't be affected.

Soap and water is very effective at removing organisms and the debris that contains them to levels sufficiently low to reduce the chances if infection. It "sanitizes" but usually does not "sterilize". This means it is effective in some applications but not all. Sanitizing is acceptable for most situations but in others, for example norovirus, Ecoli, salmonella etc. reducing the numbers of organisms may not be sufficient.

"Super Bugs" are actually resistant species. All bugs compete for nutrients etc. so that a number of types are usually present, some harmful, some not harmful. Some antibiotics, sanitizers etc. eliminate the weaker organisms, but not the more resistant ones who can now multiply quickly without competition from the organisms killed. Their higher level of resistance makes them more difficult to treat. This is a problem if they are the harmful organisms.

Soap and water is preferred over "antibacterial" soaps in most situations. They reduce bacterial numbers sufficiently to be effective, are less offensive to skin surfaces and allow beneficial organisms to remain. Antibacterial soaps would be better to wash your hands after dumping your sewer tank or to clean up surfaces exposed to raw meat.

Chlorine bleach is an excellent disinfectant. It isn't usually necessary in your black water tank. Black water contains both pathogenic (disease-causing) as well as other organisms such as those which digest sewage components. Chlorine will kill ALL these organisms. The pathogens will be addressed during the sewage digestion process. Chlorine can also damage the components of your trailer's sewage system resulting in expensive repairs.

Water from a municipal source is chlorinated. The chlorine residue inhibits bacterial growth. It will dissipate over time. As long as the bottle remains sealed bacteria can't get in so the lack of chlorine usually isn't an issue. Once the bottle is opened bacteria may get in. If they multiply you may have a problem. Using it within a day minimizes this potential. Otherwise boil it just in case. Water boils in a few minutes, stomach flu lasts for days.

In theory, fresh spring water filtered from an underground source may be safe to drink. In practice, such water is rare. All surface water and much subsurface water is contaminated with faecal organisms from cattle, wild animals etc. Beaver fever is a common example. If you drink this water or bathe in it you are likely to get sick.

Bacterial hazards shouldn't be feared but they should be respected. Camping is much more enjoyable without vomiting and diarrhea!

Happy Trails!

[Glenn Baglo]

Excellent post Mike.

[thrifty bill]

Originally Posted by Borrego Dave

Gets even better Glenn, Harbor Freight, $7.99 on sale for a 100

+10 I keep a few boxes in my workshop. I prefer the blue nitrile gloves over latex, still about $8. This thread has convinced me, the permanent gloves in the camper are going in the garbage and will be replaced with a box of disposables!

[Mike_L]

Thanks

[ZachO]

All of this is said with the knowledge that we are very lucky to have seemingly endless (seemingly, I know it's not) supplies of safe drinking water available in our houses from taps.

But...it's so hard to decide if a little deer poop is worse than all the estrogen and antidepressants and medications that are in our water system..! Both from what people flush down the toilet when it expires, and what they pee out. But then that stuff is in the environment, oceans and everywhere, not just a municipal water supply.

In general I'm careful about spring water. Luckily we've got a place close to the top of a mountain. No cattle above it, and not much chance for infection from other animals. I don't know if there's a filter, probably not, but the Forest Service has developed it a bit. There's a manhole next to it, and a rock structure built up with a spout.

In Moab I'd regularly fill from a hole in a rock cliff spewing out water. Never did get sick but you never know...

I definitely don't drink from streams, and yes, especially if there are beaver upstream. No giardia for me, thank you

I like the anti-bacterial soap points. Good to have some around for use after dumping the tanks. I don't really cook meat in the trailer so that helps.

I washed my upholstery after I first bought the trailer. I should probably get in the habit of at least doing it at the end of each season.

Good info!

[Mike_L]

If the forest service has installed a spout it's likely ground water and naturally filtered so it should be good, the same as water from a well. If not the forest service would likely post a sign saying not fit for human consumption or boil before drinking.
Medications in drinking water are certainly a concern. The effects are often seem in the fish in these waters. It's getting harder to find clean water.

[steve dunham]

We have stayed at several Wisconsin State Parks where signs were posted warning that the water was unsafe for children to drink due to high nitrate levels. The run off from agriculture
( fertilizer , pesticides , animal waste ) is polluting streams , lakes and wells.

We were camping with our grandkid's so we had to drive into town to purchase safe drinking water . One thing that irritated me was the park reservation website had no mention of any problems with the drinking water .

[Mike_L]

"Sick Trailer Syndrome" is actually an off take of "Sick Building Syndrome" which is usually caused by exposure to airborne volatile organic chemicals from glues, adhesives, paint or from moulds.

[ZachO]

^ Yes, that's correct. But it was a catchier title than "has anyone heard of a bacteria buildup in a camper to the point where they keep getting sick over and over?" or something similar.

And it's on my mind. I have a bunch of friends who fought a long time to get their employer (the state gov) to listen to them about the building they worked in. And now they've all been moved out and the building sits empty. Lead.

I also house-sat for people over the winter, and something in that house was terrible for my sinuses. Free (actually paid) living space for the winter or not...I'm not sure I'll do it again next winter if they ask. Haven't decided yet.

So the "sick building" thing was on my mind.

[Mike_L]

Zach, is there an odour in the building?

[ZachO]

The house I lived in over the winter? No, not that I or anyone else noticed.

The people have a dog, but most people I know have dogs, including myself. And I would think that after a couple months of that dog not being there, it would wear off if that's what bothered me.

I checked the air filter in the furnace and it was fine. Didn't see mold anywhere but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I house sat for them for two months over the summer, too, and my sinuses got messed up then, with no forced air heating on. But at that same time, I was working up in the mountains walking through juniper shrubs with clouds of pollen coming out of them, painting trees for a timber sale and getting paint spray back into my face...so it would be hard to blame that on the house.

But this winter got bad. I think it was bad for everyone...lots of inversions. But still. I had lots of nosebleeds, times when it hurt my sinuses just to breath, I got colds easily and was always stuffed up.

[janisg]

Originally Posted by ZachO

The house I lived in over the winter? No, not that I or anyone else noticed.

The people have a dog, but most people I know have dogs, including myself. And I would think that after a couple months of that dog not being there, it would wear off if that's what bothered me.

I checked the air filter in the furnace and it was fine. Didn't see mold anywhere but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I house sat for them for two months over the summer, too, and my sinuses got messed up then, with no forced air heating on. But at that same time, I was working up in the mountains walking through juniper shrubs with clouds of pollen coming out of them, painting trees for a timber sale and getting paint spray back into my face...so it would be hard to blame that on the house.

But this winter got bad. I think it was bad for everyone...lots of inversions. But still. I had lots of nosebleeds, times when it hurt my sinuses just to breath, I got colds easily and was always stuffed up.

Sounds like your sinuses were very dry. Did you feel better when you took a shower? You can buy a portable steamer to take with you when you house sit.

[ZachO]

Probably not a bad idea.

Thanks.

[Kai in Seattle]

ZachO--I really feel for you. So many things to work on eliminating...and wonder about. I so sincerely hope you can gradually find out what all is causing your troubles. My guess is it may be more than one thing, but a synergistic combo of things. None of them very bad by itself, but added to other things and there you are. The dry air idea is good, too.


Let us know how you're doing as time goes on?


BEST
Kai

[janisg]

Originally Posted by janisg

Sounds like your sinuses were very dry. Did you feel better when you took a shower? You can buy a portable steamer to take with you when you house sit.

Correction. I should have said portable humidifier. I looked up steamer on Amazon and got nothing but cooking appliances.