Dawn Trailer

[honda03842]

This is a description of a trailer designed for fulltiming, a go anywhere trailer for two people to live 'home comfortable'.

A few people have asked me to post what I proposed to Scamp. My goal was to base the design on an extended Scamp 16 to minimize tooling for them. It was a compromise. In the posts that follow I will define what I consider to be the ideal trailer without the Scamp compromises.

I encourage suggestion and correction. It's the little paper mind game I play all the time, forever sketching trailer floor plans and ideas.

I thought of this trailer initially from the perspective of what we want, however the design also contains what I've hear others want.

[David B.]

Norm, was there supposed to be an attachment or something with your posting? You have me hooked and I am looking forward to hear/seeing your desired trailer.
Dave & Paula

[honda03842]

Hi Dave. I'm just going to post a little at a time. I don't really have any suitable pictures but will sketch it at some point. I'll probably do a couple of sections a day.

[honda03842]

When I originally proposed most of these ideas to Scamp I would have used the basic Scamp shape. If I were starting myself I would choose a new shape, yet aerodynamic, mostly for the marketing and efficiency purposes.

I admit to liking the rounded Scamp shape. Though there are some issues with the Bonair Oxygen, it shape pleasingly catches your eye. Some trailers catch your eye, like the Alto, but are not pleasing but only different. The Oxygen is different and attractive. Though the Oxygen is not an ideal shape for this solution it is not a bad first order approximation.

Dawn would be about Oxygen size with inside dimensions about 16 feet long, 7 feet wide and 6’4” high. Outside it would be about 19.5 feet.

There are three basic areas in the trailer, the front living area, the center kitchen/bathroom area and the rear configurable 'room'.

The living are makes up half the trailer. This area is the living, dining and sleeping area. I know it sounds like a lot. It’s used as a fixed configurable area. Push a button and the bed appears.

The bathroom/kitchen area are the trailer’s core. It is 5 feet long and centered over the axle. Everything of significant weight is within 2.5 feet of the axle, utensil drawer, black tank, canned food storage. grey tank, fresh water, hot water fridge, stove, shower, and toilet. My experience that low and axle centered weight adds to stability.

The configurable rear room can be set up for storage, as a desk, a work area or with bunks, small but flexible space. It could possibly be owner configurable.

[honda03842]

This was supposed to be the second post...

By home comfortable I mean a trailer that’s comfortable as your home a great bed, real shower and comfortable seating supported by adequate systems for dry camping in four season weather. Other than a little more cost, there’s no reason for the trailer not to be comfortable. I’m going to call the trailer Dawn for now.

When we travel we are usually out exploring the area during the day. In the evening we’re usually home and find the general seating long term to be marginally comfortable. Improving this is a focus. There will be comfortable seating for four adults in a two person loveseat and in two small easy chairs.

Dawn would have a walk around queen sized bed. By walk around I mean you can get out of bed on either side. As well it’s mattress will be home like.

Though we are happy in our 44” bed and don’t mind getting up for each other during the night, that’s not the case for many.

The bathroom will have a home style shower with standing headroom, independent from the toilet and sink, comfortable for an adult.

These ‘home comfortable’ additions are designed to improve the extended camping experience. Many of the little foibles of a small trailer are easy to live during short term trips but can become trying for some over time. For us I believe the most significant is lack of comfortable seating.

Another for some is lack of good organized storage. In a typical home there is usually plenty of storage space, though often not well used. In a trailer we typically have less stuff but not really good places to put it. In Dawn there will be plenty of well defined storage space.

[redbarron55]

I am working along similar lines with the old Scamp we are completely rebuilding. Of course we have less space to work within the confines of the 6.6' X 13' space.
one of the main issues for Connie (She Who Must Be Obeyed) is not crawling over each other in the middle of the night. Toward this end I am designing two bunks in the rear along each wall. If they are each 30" wide that leaves approximately 18" walkway in the middle.
This space is light, but storage underneath and over head.
I found that the Ikea Lonset foundation (30" 1/2 of the 60" queen set) is very comfortable. We tried the twin for our guest room and it sleeps wonderfully.

This is not available in the US, but I want to add this feature.

This is very much a work in progress. Here id the basic floor of the bath in the front center where the headroom is greater than the side.

To get a better idea here is a pictuer from the rear with the wall and kitchen cabinets kinda in place.

By the way the sink is an Ikea unit as well.

[Ken C]

Nice work JD thanks for sharing your photos.

[honda03842]

JD.

Certainly I believe there's room for Layout improvement within the Scamp shell. I considered twins but Ginny would be unhappy.

When I was looking at the Scamp Prime design, my approach was to have a manually pull out bed at the rear of the Scamp, not a Murphy bed but with the philosophy of a Murphy bed allowing the space to be a comfortable bed that could be rapidly set up with little effort, yet provide a comfortable sitting area when not sleeping. It was just possible.

My attention was to convert to the Scamp's side bathroom to a stand alone shower with the toilet moved forward to the front wall, eliminating the front couch. The balance of the couch was to be converted into a front kitchen, stove and sink. The shower would have been smaller than what I propose for the Dawn trailer but adequate though with stand up head room.

Moving the stove and sink forward in the Scamp Prime results in ample kitchen storage since the underneath counter cabinets are empty. This opens up the rear of the trailer for living space.

Another disadvantage of the Scamp is the shape of it's stepped roof line. Though the stepped roof line reduces frontal area and adds stiffening to the trailer, it reduces the space in overhead cabinets, another reason I like the general shape of the Oxygen.

[redbarron55]

I agree on the roof of the Scamp. That was the reason I moved the bath to the front center to get headroom for a 6' wife. She did not care for the side bath at all!
She suggested the twin bunks and for night access with out crawling over one another so it was non-negotiable.
Still a lot to work out in the details, but I am getting closer.
We plan to use the beds like recliners to eat and watch TV etc. A table will be made for the space in between. We don't plan to cook a lot and I have added a "closet" by the door for the refrigerator and microwave convection oven so we can brown, toast and microwave. (Connie is not big on this particular item, but time will tell.)
We are working with what we have in the Scamp. Fitting things in with no square corners and really straight lines is a challenge. Especially in fitting junctions with walls and cabinets etc. Have jigsaw, will travel reads the card of a man!
A problem I am dealing with is what to do with the space to the driver's side of the new bath. This "corner" would make a good space for something with the plumbing, but I need to make a curved (complex) door for access if I mount the Macerating pump there for the black/gray water drain system I am planning. Any ideas on how to do this? I think I can fabricate a door using the part of the side cut out and some creative fiberglassing.

JD

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Outside it would be about 19.5 feet.

Woooo! Norm never though I would hear you say you want a trailer of 19' + in length!

It seems to me the Escape 19' & 21' & Bigfoot 21' would appear to have most of what you are asking for with the exception of the walk around bed which is why Scamp did not respond as they know those two manufactures have a pretty strong market share in those sized fiberglass trailers.

The only walk around bed I have ever seen in a smallish fiberglass trailer is in the Bigfoot 25'. Suspect the reason for that is its tough to fit a walk around full sized bed in a trailer that is only 7' wide as you have proposed. I know Escape ended up having to add an extra 4" onto the width of the 19' (its 7' wide outside) in order to fit a bed into the 21' (7' 4") that had one side access even though they were not wanting to add extra width originally and the Bigfoot with clearance on both sides of the bed is even bigger at 8' wide.

Would love to see a sketch up of your proposed layout to see how you fit everything in.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Would love to see a sketch up of your proposed layout to see how you fit everything in.

And, don't forget to include the wheel wells. Almost every attempt to redesign existing trailers that I've seen, forgets about wheel wells. Once you have those in the right place, you find that they impact on placement of appliances, bathroom etc.

And, there is weight and balance, from side to side and back to front.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

And, don't forget to include the wheel wells. Almost every attempt to redesign existing trailers that I've seen, forgets about wheel wells. Once you have those in the right place, you find that they impact on placement of appliances, bathroom etc.

And, there is weight and balance, from side to side and back to front.

Good point and if I am not mistaken it is why Escape ended caving in and building a 21' trailer rather than simple modifying the 19' to accommodate all the things their customers where asking for.

[honda03842]

Carol,

I'm not familiar with the Big Foot line, though they are large enough or heavy enough to support a real usable interior. Not being critical of the Big Foot, but they are heavy trailers. My goal is to build a trailer that could be towed by a Honda CRV...just kidding... but lighter than a Casita 17. By the way Ginny would roll her eye for teasing you.

I'm not opposed to 19 or 21 foot trailers. Actually my proposal to Scamp fit within a slightly modified Scamp 16. It required that they add an integrated "bumper box' to the Scamp 1 effectively making it 18 feet long.

An Escape 19 or 21 to my knowledge both require some level of crawling out or crawling over, not my personal experience except for what I read on this site.

Both Escapes have wet showers, I prefer a larger less effort shower though for us we're happy with camp ground showers. We do meet many people, for reasons beyond me, will not use a campground shower. For us if the campground shower has wet and hot water we're happy using it and all but one have though there was one in Quebec where the shower was french beautiful but he water was brown...

Most trailers other than med. to large 5th wheels and big 'stick builts' do not have what I call comfortable seating. I personally like a real couch or real easy chairs. At night we're usually in the trailer for 3 hours a night reading or writing. There have been numerous people on the site that seek more comfortable seating.

The proposal is different in that it's small but contains multi-use space in front and back. My thought is that it's not a problem if it's quick and easy to convert. Dinner for four and the coffee table pops up into a table for four, by the way storage built into the bottom of the coffee table.

The back is designed to be multi-purpose, countered storage area, large work desk, private area, two substantial bunks, and a sewing area, pretty much the space can be configured to the owner's need.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

And, don't forget to include the wheel wells. Almost every attempt to redesign existing trailers that I've seen, forgets about wheel wells. Once you have those in the right place, you find that they impact on placement of appliances, bathroom etc.

And, there is weight and balance, from side to side and back to front.

Glenn.

Usually the wheel wells are the first thing I sketch in after the shell.

I believe in weight low and weight over the axle. The trailer's core, including the fresh, grey, black and hot water tanks, fridge, can pantry are all within 2.5 feet of the axle.

We owned a trailer with this core configuration. It tracked beautifully.

[redbarron55]

My plans include a box on the front. The issue working for clearance for the compressor for the mini-split. As to the wheel well issue:

[Timber Wolf]

Interesting, I assume you are thinking single axle, the weight should allow it. I seem to recall reading that Escape originally thought a single would be fine on the 19 but "the market" demanded/expected double axles on that size trailer.

I am slowly rethinking my bed expectations in a smallish TT. I would love to have a Queen but a couple of Twins might work too. I roll around a lot at night and all the activity is not always appreciated by my bunk mates. Which these days is a cat, but I digress.

[David B.]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

My plans include a box on the front. The issue working for clearance for the compressor for the mini-split. As to the wheel well issue:

This is one of reasons I chose the Lil Snoozy.....no space lost inside by the fender wells, comfortable couch, entertainment area, large kitchen, 41 gallon fresh water over the axle....etc.
Dave & Paula

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

An Escape 19 or 21 to my knowledge both require some level of crawling out or crawling over, not my personal experience except for what I read on this site.
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Both Escapes have wet showers, I prefer a larger less effort shower though for us we're happy with camp ground showers.
.

Your correct the 19' is across the trailer as it is in your current 16' Scamp but on the 21' you can access the bed from the foot of it & from one side - so one party does still need to crawl just not over the other party to get out.... but thats basically why I was asking how you plan to get a full sized bed with access from both sides into a trailer of the width you are proposing.

Yes the Escapes do have a wet bath but they are larger & thus easier to use than what you & I have in our Scamp 16's. You can actually stand to shower in the Escape! Imagine that! LOL The Bigfoot on the other hand does have a separate shower stall but as you say its a heavy trailer full of many other features not found on the lighter class fiberglass trailers.

[redbarron55]

There are lot of trailers that may be better than my old rehashed Scamp 16, but this is my pay as you go. I also know the quality of the components and work going into it. My original intent was to make it fit our perceived needs, keep it as light as we could (failing a little there), keep the weight low (meaning not up high on the trailer as well as a small amount of lbs!) and as near the axle as possible, and keep the tongue weight within 200 lbs, but with better stability. The longer tongue should help the latter, the AC up there hurts a little as does the frame reinforcements and front bath.
I find it hard to regret a little steel where the original frame broke, however.

[Mike Magee]

I like the idea of a rear room that is mostly open. In fact, I queried Escape about the possibility of a 19' with no rear bed (or rear anything). It would be a nice space to set up a recliner. But they replied, The bed in the 19’ Escape has storage underneath it as well as electrical components and the water heater. If you were wanting to switch the bed to the front of the trailer we would still need to have the dinette benches at the back to cover up the water heater and electrical cords. So I abandoned that idea.