Tow vehicle advice - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 05-19-2015, 11:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by MC1 View Post
Wasn't it Carol who suggested that when they test cars for towing they leave the parking brake engaged to reduce performance. That way they will sell more high profit pick ups. Makes sense.
Did you try it with your Airstream and did it compromise its towing performance in anyway?

#1 reason for loving that all the major vehicle manufactures are onboard with using the SAE J2807 for determining what tow rating they will or will not put on their vehicles is it pretty well puts an end to the endless speculation by a handful of folks here as to how/who sets tow ratings and why. Its even being used by auto manufactures who don't even have a truck in their line up to sell you

What I find kind of funny is the urban myth that continues regarding the high profit margins of trucks! Where does that come from?

Funny enough I ended up with a truck as I could not afford the much higher sticker price on a couple of SUV type vehicles I would have preferred. You don't think there is a wee bit of profit being made on those ? Not to mention that they are selling way more SUV's and cars in this neck of the woods than they are trucks. Suspect auto manufactures & local dealers would all be looking for bankruptcy protection if they were counting on trucks to make their profit in urban areas with such a small percentage of sales being trucks.

I have no doubt big truck makers are making a good profit off of trucks but I would suggest it has a more to do with high volume of fleet sales/leases to large industry based companies that go through a lot of trucks in a year and most of those trucks are very stripped down versions. I actually had a ride in a fleet truck recently - did you know you could actually still get a vehicle that does not have power windows or locks?? Who would of thought it! LOL

The consumer trucks that are being used as a daily drive and for towing the family RV pretty well have all the same bells and whistles that the cars and SUV's have so I would not be so sure there is actually a larger profit margin in that segment of the auto market, than there is in the SUV segment for example.
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Old 05-19-2015, 11:23 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Uplander View Post
I feel many towing limits are written by the legal department of the auto makers.
It is also easier to stick a 1,000 Lb limit on a vehicle and eliminate any real testing.
!
Welcome to 2015 and the new world order which includes the SAE J2807 which sets the standard that the auto makers use to determine tow ratings. The standard has been agreed to by the auto manufactures and it covers ALL AUTO's up to 13 000 lb GVWR not just trucks.

The tow ratings take into account the five factors that determine a vehicle’s towing performance: torque, cooling, durability, braking and handling.

The standards also spells out the frontal area of the trailer, the hitch/tongue design and how the weight it is distributed on its axles.

It also includes the weight of a driver and passenger in the calculation as well as the weight of any optional equipment so a heavily-optioned vehicle will have a lower rating than a bare-bones base model.
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Old 05-19-2015, 11:27 AM   #31
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When you state frontal area are we talking flap plate equivalent area. In which case the eggs are quite a bit less since they are not flat plates. It depends on the streamlining of that frontal area and the fairing behind.
If you are towing a square box then OK I agree.

Or at least NASA thinks so.
I think we might be a little more like the bullet, but a little better since the back is not flat, but rounded as well.
I believe this is one of the reasons we bought Scamps and Casitas et.al. in the first place. So we could tow with an economical car or small truck.
IF we need an F350 then perhaps we should rethink the problem.
For years I owned one or another motor home because I did not want to drive a big truck nor maintain one. If it just sits waiting on a trip then can you be sure it is ready to go? The 16' Scamp fits what I am looking for now. As many have stated the 16' doesn't take much more power to tow than the 13' and some truck drivers have stated that they get better fuel mileage towing an egg than not.
One statement does not explain everything and never has.
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:24 PM   #32
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I am loving the education I'm getting on this conversation. Thanks for all the input keep it up!!

Sent from my C6530N using Fiberglass RV mobile app
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:34 PM   #33
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You will need to go and read the actual SAE to see what the set standard for testing in regards to the frontal area actually states. As with all tests there needs/has to be a baseline to which they are testing and your correct one size does not fit all.

At least now we know how they are testing and the criteria used & from there as with all things there will be variables to consider.

Regardless I suspect most here would agree that a vehicle that has been given a 1000lb tow rating or less and has been tested using the SAE J2807 is not suddenly going to be able to solidly and safely tow a 3000lb trailer trouble free, simple due to the the aerodynamics of the frontal area of some of our fiberglass trailers (I say some as some are actually more box like than egg like) as some here might suggest they can.

Torque, cooling, durability, braking, handling and axle weight are also all part of the testing criteria set out and as such play a big part in the final tow rating number placed on vehicles now. As they should.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Lisa in FL View Post
I am loving the education I'm getting on this conversation. Thanks for all the input keep it up!!
So glad you're taking it in stride! Towing capacity is the #1 hot-button issue on this forum. Toilets and rivets are right behindů
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:32 PM   #35
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Hmmmm. Fancy Schmancy formulas again.....
Quote: "If you are towing a square box then OK I agree"


Many of us are towing square boxes and some of those may have less drag than a Egg camper and certainly less than those silvery looking super egg shaped thingys.


"Be careful what you wish for, You just might get it."
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:09 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post
One can go spec crazy.

Without looking it up for the Ford Escape, my recollection is that if you go by the frontal area spec you can't tow any fiberglass trailer. It's limited to 30 square feet, a Scamp is 56 square feet.

Oh heck I looked it up.

http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/g...cape_Sep30.pdf
ROFL you might want to take it one step beyond just looking it up

IT DOES NOT say your limited to 30 Square feet.

What it does state is:

"Frontal Area Considerations"

Escape with tow package class II hitch = 30 sq Feet.

"Frontal Area is the total area in square feet that a moving vehicle and trailer exposes to air resistance. The chart shows the limitations that must be considered in selecting a vehicle/trailer combination. Exceeding these limitations may significantly reduce the performance of your towing vehicle. Selecting a trailer with a low-drag, rounded front design can help optimize performance efficiency."

KEY words to keep in mind are " Must be considered"

Once again the consumer can give thanks to SAE J2807 for yet another important bit of info as to just how the manufacture has came up with the tow rating they assigned that vehicle. No Need for anyone here to be guessing about it. No longer a dark secret that only the legal departments know the answer to.

If you are going to put forward a test of any value or worth it has to have a base line number just as the manufactures all agreed to use for the grade of road they tested on. Just as roads are not all the same grade - trailers are not going to all have the same frontal area. So the best that can be done in that regard is have the manufacture actually tell the consumer what number they used during the test.

Ford had to pick a number for the frontal area and what they have picked is obviously what they believe the average trailer being towed by an Escape owner will have - looks like they may think that average is going to be about equal to a small boat & not an RV - as highlighted by the photo they included with that little tid bit.

At least now you know if you toss a trailer on the back of an Escape that has a frontal area of greater than 30 sq. feet you should not/can not expect the same performance level from the vehicle that Ford experienced when running their towing test & setting the tow rating.

Darn that SAE J2807 its sure is take a lot of fun out of the speculating done here by some in regards to how tow ratings are established
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:53 PM   #37
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When engineers mention square foot frontal area they use it a a reference taking into account the shape, Streamlining etc. the equivalent flat plate area of the 56 square foot Scamp is equal to 56 X that Cd of 0.295 or 16.52 square feet. This is why the Scamp tows with little horsepower. Also the reason the sometimes when a Scamp and a big truck are involved the combination uses less power and fuel.
This is why Ford suggests towing a trailer with rounded corners in their specifications (kinda like a Scamp!)
By the way the Ford Escape is the Ford Europe Kuga which has a tow rating of 1850 KG for the 1.5 Liter EcoBoost engine. With the 2.0 Liter TDI the tow rating is 2100 KG!.
The Kuga was voted the best tow car of it's class:

The ford tow rating of the 30 square feet (flat plate equivalent by the way) and 3500 lbs applies only when the towing package including the connection with the trailer stability control system, (required by the Euro Standards)
It also takes a lot of fun out of speculating when one doesn't understand the engineering involved.
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:22 PM   #38
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by redbarron55 View Post
When engineers mention square foot frontal area they use it a a reference taking into account the shape, Streamlining etc. the equivalent flat plate area of the 56 square foot Scamp is equal to 56 X that Cd of 0.295 or 16.52 square feet. This is why the Scamp tows with little horsepower. Also the reason the sometimes when a Scamp and a big truck are involved the combination uses less power and fuel.
This is why Ford suggests towing a trailer with rounded corners in their specifications (kinda like a Scamp!)
.
Thanks for explaining it in layman terms!
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:41 PM   #40
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JD, not sure if it's on my end or yours but your pics didn't come through.
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Old 05-20-2015, 07:39 AM   #41
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=8nrG1JZFaGo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=jhmdfkwsCjs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=8H65PMTcXOU
Above should be links to the embedded videos.
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:59 AM   #42
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For any of you who may be interested in reading for yourselves what SAE J2807 says, a 2012 PDF version can be viewed at http://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_r.../pdf/j2807.pdf
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