Tow vehicle advice

[redbarron55]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=8nrG1JZFaGo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=jhmdfkwsCjs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=8H65PMTcXOU
Above should be links to the embedded videos.

[Ice-breaker]

For any of you who may be interested in reading for yourselves what SAE J2807 says, a 2012 PDF version can be viewed at http://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_r.../pdf/j2807.pdf

[The Minimalist]

"With the 2.0 Liter TDI the tow rating is 2100 KG!."

I don't care if it's rated the best tow vehicle in it's class. I don't think I would pull a trailer that weighed in at 4629.70751 lbs with a Ford Escape.

............but someone will try it.

[redbarron55]

If J2807 requirements are met then the manufacturer can add this to their specifications and ads:

6. TOW-VEHICLE GCWR AND TWR DOCUMENTATION
Trailer Weight Ratings (TWRs) and Gross Combination Weight Ratings (GCWRs) may be important marketing attributes
for some tow-vehicle models. For any model or group of models rated per all the applicable requirements of this
document, tow-vehicle manufacturers may make the following claim in any publication: “This(These) model(s) meet(s) or
exceed(s) the tow-vehicle trailering requirements of SAE International per SAE J2807”.

There is no legal requirement for manufacturers to use these guidelines and many do not.

However in the Euro Zone since 2006 meeting the tests and specifications for trailers, stability load testing of trailer hitches has been a legal requirement. This is regulated to a much greater extent than in the US.
All of the cars I have mentioned have met the 12% grade tests, however since the Davis Dam grade is in Arizona they probably have differing test criterion for that part of their standard.
Also remember each car approved for towing must have trailer electronic stability assist also since 2006. This is why the Ford Escape (Fuga) has this setup. Now some of the trucks have it as well. Probably because some are sold in Europe and it is required.
I think that the Ford Escape may be better able to handle 2100 KG than the VW Tiguan can 4000 lbs, but that is the US rating for the car.(with the factory towing package, again)

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

There is no legal requirement for manufacturers to use these guidelines and many do not.

)

While true it is not a legal requirement (many think it will be shortly though which is why they went ahead an voluntarily put the test together) but many of the auto makers have indeed agreed to use it starting with the 2015 model years. Ford, RAM, GMC, Chevy, Jeep, Honda, Toyota, & Nissan to name just a few I know of - there maybe others. Although some of those auto makers have said that some of the older models have not be rated YET using the test but have gone public and stating what models they are selling that were not tested & waiting on release of redesigned vehicles which will be rated using the test.

Actually Toyota kind of pushed the rest into it by starting to use it a few years go when the rest of them backed out of the original deal they had made to use it.

[redbarron55]

One may find this video interesting.

[PC Steve]

If the J2807 is all that great, how do all the ratings come out to a nice round number? It seems that it is probably a minimum performance standard to address overstating capacity. It appears to allow the manufacturer to understate capacity at will. How can a vehicle have NO towing capacity if measured by an objective engineering standard?

If that is the case we will continue to rely on "you're gonna get sued" and "God will strike you down" if you exceed the manufacturers rating.

Edit. Item 1 discusses the use as a minimum standard and 1.1 gives plenty of latitude. It is not going to guarantee consistent tow ratings, only that the vehicles are tested at their published rating at a minimum.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by PC Steve

If the J2807 is all that great, how do all the ratings come out to a nice round number?

A good question Steve. All mini vans get a 3,500 lb rating. Most cars in North America get an exact 1,000lb rating. A bit of a lark considering many of them when set up optimally are towing 5,000lbs plus and perform better than many vehicles with a tow rating 5 to 7 times that of the cars.

[redbarron55]

Since many cars are the base platform for minivans and crossover SUV one wonders why the cars that make the foundation are not rated?
Both the Tiguan and Golf are based on the PQ35 platform. The Tiguan is rated 4000 lbs towing in the US and the Golf rated maybe 1000. Not much difference in Europe though.
Most of the other CUV are also based on passenger car platforms. Ford and Madza also share platforms.
Most likely the manufacturers just want the higher margin units rated and the less expensive not.
There without a doubt some added heavier duty parts like transmission coolers etc, but these items could be just as easily added to sedans and wagons.
The VW DSG transmission when fitted to the higher dollar Audi has a slightly larger transmission cooler. It happens to use the engine cooling for transmission cooling just as likely to raise the temp when the transmission is cold.
$250 will get the bigger cooler for the VW.

[Bob Miller]

Automatic transmission "Intercoolers", located in the bottom tank of the radiator, have been around since at least the 60's, nothing new there, except when your engine gets hot, so does the transmission.

[redbarron55]

Actually this cooler is located on the top of the transmission, but the effect is the same. There are adapters to add air to oil coolers, but not many have had the need for it.
The transmission is basically the same as a manual with no torque converter to add much heat.

[Christian in FL]

Hello again, still shopping, but closer to a buy. One more question for you all, what do you think of manual vs automatic transmission. I prefer manual but am having difficulty find one in the used market.

Sent from my C6530N using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[MC1]

Hi Lisa. I too prefer a manual (fun to drive) and have had many over the years.

But a wise man (one who has towed 1,000's of various combinations over 45 years) once told me that when towing you have enough things to be aware of and that is where the simplicity of an Automatic kicks in. He also said that at times it takes a few forward and backward moves to get backed into a campsite. That clutch in the manual vehicle can really heat up.

I agree with that wise man. Want a manual but use an Automatic.

[Christian in FL]

Thanks, those are really good points.

Sent from my C6530N using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[rbryan]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

So glad you're taking it in stride! Towing capacity is the #1 hot-button issue on this forum. Toilets and rivets are right behind…

Hmmm. Towing Capacity - high. Toilet - nice one. Rivets - have none. No wonder I don't have any hot-buttons!

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by Lisa in FL

Thanks, those are really good points.

Sent from my C6530N using Fiberglass RV mobile app

I too am a manual transmission aficionado, and the fear of replacing a clutch every 100,000+ miles is no where near the cost of having an automatic transmission overhauled. But in many, many years the only clutch I have replaced was one in my Corvette that the previous owner apparently had a weak leg using.... But I have had to replace at least two torque converters and several front seal, not small $$$$$

And really, if one can't tow a trailer and shift a transmission at the same time it might be time to start thinking of some other mode of transportation. Me thinks that to be a bit lame...

Bottom line though is that some vehicles do have a higher tow rating with an automatic than a standard transmission, something to consider in your search.

BTW: If you do find the TV you want, and it's a standard transmission, be sure to tell the seller that you really wanted an automatic, just to drive the price down. It's worked twice for me with dealers and I knew that both vehicles were the 5 speeds that I wanted before I ever got to the lot!!!! Dealers DO NOT like having standard transmission vehicles, new or used, on the lot, most customers won't buy them. But there is nothing smoother than a nice T-5, it's like buttah... LOL

[Uplander]

Suggest tou go for the automatic trans with the addition of a quality trans-cooler...have it installed by a qualified transmission shop and not the dealer as they will only send it out to a transmission shop and charge you more than going direct.

If you elect to go with a standard transmission be sure you have a tach and keep the RPMs at the proper level or you will destroy the clutch and engine in the process.
This is not a concern with today's automatics as the are computer controlled and maintain the correct RPMs.

Good luck and Happy Camping!

[Bob Miller]

Quote: "If you elect to go with a standard transmission be sure you have a tach and keep the RPMs at the proper level or you will destroy the clutch and engine in the process." (Italics added)


And why/how is that? I can't say that I have ever heard that in some 50+ years of driving. And for about 1/2 of those years we didn't even have tach's in most cars. It sound like you may have been victim of a scare tactic by the pro-automatic crowd.


BTW: Automatics do not maintain the correct RPM, Only the driver or the cruise control has any say over that. But they can maintain the correct gear for the load.

[Uplander]

For Bob Miller, All the information I have about the RPM/gear relationships when towing came from automotive experts and truck drivers who did the majority of their driving while towing in the Rocky Mountain States. Maintaining the proper RPMs is critical. Today's automatic transmissions utilize a computer to achieve this...if you drive a standard shift transmission that job fall on the driver.
Even the owner's manual often states to avoid driving in overdrive gear when towing with an automatic in hilly areas.
I drive a Toyota product with a 5 speed automatic...in hilly areas I set the transmission to lock out the 5th gear. When I do that my engine's RPMs rarely fall below 2,000 RPMs...this is all computer controlled in Toyota Products.
Setting the selector in the "D" position results in constant down shifting trying to maintain RPM in hilly conditions.....I do use the "D" position when running on flat and/or less hilly roads to increase gas mileage.
I did tow with a standard transmission and tach many years ago and found it to be a real pain in the a** !!! Most knowledgeable automotive professional feel that an automatic transmission is stronger than a standard transmission....this applies to today's automatics....the industry now shows better gas mileage on all its' automatic transmissions vs. standard shift transmissions....this is illustrated on the window stickers found on new cars and trucks.
Every year automatic transmissions get better and better...not so on standard shift models....they are "old school".

Happy Camping....no matter what you drive.

[MC1]

Uplander.... You have the right info!