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Old 03-25-2017, 05:55 PM   #1
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A weighty matter

We went to the Escapees RV Club “Escapade 57” in Tucson, AZ for the week of March 19 to learn more about RVing. Initially, we were slotted in for boondocking as no FH were available. However, at the last minute, a small slot opened up so we jumped on it. Having been boondocking for 1.5 weeks at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument. With the limited generator hours we were happy to have full electric at the Pima County Fair Grounds so we could run our AC and keep Esme safe and cool while we were both attending seminars.

WOW! Did we learn a lot. Many seminars and a panel discussion on Full Timing. Pondering what that may mean for our future. Likely a continuation of “seasonal” extended travel for 3-5 months. Our 16’ Scamp is fine for most of what we need, but it is limiting from time to time. Many like Bob & Mary with their 17” Casita solve this with a Clam tent that provides an add on room. While we have a new TV (Ford Flex with factory tow package to 3,500 lbs.) we are still concerned about space and weight. Adding a Clam tent might still be possible in the future or not!

The seminars on RV safety as related to tires and weight was a real eye opener. I was certainly ignorant and have been following “conventional wisdom.”

This information is critical info for all who are towing or are considering a new trailer and or tow vehicle. Key issues are not only GVWR – gross vehicle weight rating which equals the max weight capacity as per the manufacturer, of one’s TV, trailer or 5th wheel. The per axle GAWR for front and rear of TV and trailer axle is also important. For multi-axle trailers Bigfoot etc. the front and rear are also rated. Also the side to side weight is very important as the total weight may not exceed GVWR however, if not balanced the side to side weight could dangerously overload one side’s tire rating. The GCWR is the maximum weight of all vehicles combined.

Overloading is a general and serious RV problem, not limited to one type of RV. Those of us here on Fiberglass are small and mostly available space self-limits how much “stuff” we carry as opposed to the huge motorhomes that seem to have every available storage area packed with stuff.

Apparently based on real data 60% of tow vehicles exceed one or more ratings; 20% are over the GAWR, 15% exceed tire ratings, 42% exceed GVWR and 48% GCWR. For medium duty trucks (over 15K GVWR) 14% overload tires, 11% exceed GCWR, 20% exceed GAWR. People seem to feel they were safe with these trucks as the GVWR was generally not exceeded!

For travel trailers 51% exceed one or more ratings; 14% tires, 41% GCWR and 36% GAWR.

I did drive onto a CAT truckstop scale when we were headed to Jekyll Island last year and assumed I was OK with a total vehicle and Scamp (16’) weight. Now I realize that was not only not accurate, but not relevant for those of us with RVs.

I did pay the $55.00 at the Escapee event to have our TV and trailer Smart weighed. What an insurance policy for the road.

Each wheel of the TV loaded for travel with all passengers is weighed w/o the trailer to provide a front to back and side to side baseline. At a later time the 4 wheels of the TV with trailer attached are weighed again as is the trailer. I could not find the official Scamp GVWR plate that is supposed to be on the tongue. Do not think we ever had one. I called Scamp and the 16’ with AC, awning etc. (not deluxe with wood cabinets) has an estimated as 2,100 lbs dry weight and has a GVWR of 3,500 lbs. So our new Ford Flex will be maxed out pulling a loaded 16’ Scamp!

I can now forget moving to a bigger FG trailer to consider full timing e.g. a 21’ etc. these cannot be safely towed with our Flex and will exceed the rating. So a standard Scamp 16’ can have up to 1,400 lbs of “stuff” also known as food, tools, books, clothes that can be added. Hmm we replaced the standard deep cycle battery with a much larger AHR one that added +/- 25 lbs more, added a bike rack 35 lbs, 2 bikes 22+30 lbs 52 lbs…hmmm it can add up. Have not weighed all the canned goods, second set of sheets, towels on and on.

The good news was after the weighing we are 1,000 below max and only have a slight side to side issue with our Scamp which we will now adjust. The door side is heavier by 300 lbs. RVs are notoriously unbalanced from the factory.


Why? Well the sink, stove, microwave, water heater and fridge are all on one side. As is the fresh water tank but is empty at weigh-in. All of the dry good foods and canned foods are also on that side. We will move as much of the food over to the other side as we can in the future for travel. The tire rating is not exceeded on that side, but it may run a bit hotter that the other side.

Our right side was 1,400 lbs and left 1,100 lbs. Tongue wt. about 250 lbs. The Flex has a standard GVWR of 6,000 lbs. and max of 6,150lbs. With the Scamp hitched up we have 2,890 lbs on the front and 3,130 on the rear so we are just 20 lbs above the standard GVWR. But within the max by 130 lbs. Good thing we had the third row seat removed!

Aside from reliability and premature fatigue/failure from over loading there are legal consequences if you ever have an incident. Insurance will generally not pay if you are over loaded in addition to penalties that can be levied by law enforcement and traffic safety people.

As they say “Ignorance is bliss” and I was happily towing our Scamp with the old Ford Freestyle that had a MAX tow CVWR of 2000 lbs, oops below even the dry weight of the Scamp from the factory. And I wondered why the aftermarket hitch was pulling out of the frame?

Our Scamp and new Ford Flex TV combo are well matched and once we balance the side to side weight all will be good for the foreseeable future.
Some points to ponder as we consider lbs per gallon: gas=6.1, diesel =7.1, propane 4.24, water (fresh, black, grey) 8.3.

My new Mantra... If Ignorance is Bliss I prefer to be unhappy

If your wish to be “Unhappy” I suggest buying a copy of The RVer’s Ultimate Survival Guide, Neil W. Lekander.

Cheers,

Bad Dude
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:26 PM   #2
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So should I be afraid to share the road with you?
Fortunately I have room and capacity enough to bring my own lawyer along...
As long as it ain't Perry Mason from late in the series!
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:47 PM   #3
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Very interesting. I would gladly pay $55 to get the detailed weight information you received. Side-to-side imbalance is a problem with side dinette layouts, and it has been discussed here before. That 1400 pounds exceeds the capacity of most 13" C load range tires, which I believe used to be OEM from Scamp.

Sounds like with smaller rigs, GCWR and GAWR (rear) are the most likely trouble spots. I suspect the problem is we match the trailer to the vehicle's tow ratings, and then load a bunch of stuff into the vehicle. My Pilot has a chart in the owner's manual showing how tow ratings drop (significantly!) when you start adding extra passengers or equivalent cargo.
Click image for larger version

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Even trucks pulling modest sized fiberglass trailers are not immune. Many half-ton trucks have surprisingly low payload ratings, and the temptation to fill the cargo bed with all manner of camping toys is great.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:16 PM   #4
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Ford Flex towing capacity??

Bat Dude, fyi, all of the Ford Motor Company towing specs I found for the 2010-2017 Ford Flex indicates a towing capacity of 4500 lbs. with the Class III towing package. What year is your Flex?
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:51 PM   #5
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I've been to WalMart and I can tell you that the average adult doesn't weigh 150 pounds!
With a total payload capacity of 1500 pounds and eight real adults on board that Pilot ain't "safely" leavin' the driveway, especially if they each have a "Big Gulp" in hand!
Of course if you insist on every passenger getting on the scale before getting onboard...you'll be OK driving alone!
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:01 PM   #6
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Does anyone know how much a heavy rain adds to the weight of an F150 towing an Escape 19 ?
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd View Post
I've been to WalMart and I can tell you that the average adult doesn't weigh 150 pounds!
With a total payload capacity of 1500 pounds and eight real adults on board that Pilot ain't "safely" leavin' the driveway, especially if they each have a "Big Gulp" in hand!
Of course if you insist on every passenger getting on the scale before getting onboard...you'll be OK driving alone!
According to the CDC , the average American adult male weighs
200 lbs and the average American adult female weighs 160 lbs.
Many newer vehicles would be over their payload limit carrying there listed passenger capacity based on 150 Lbs per person
Many small 5 passenger vehicles have a payload capacity of only 700 lbs.
It isn't hard to see that there is a problem with the numbers especially if you have ever been to Walmart.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd View Post
I've been to WalMart and I can tell you that the average adult doesn't weigh 150 pounds!
With a total payload capacity of 1500 pounds and eight real adults on board that Pilot ain't "safely" leavin' the driveway, especially if they each have a "Big Gulp" in hand!:
Of course if you insist on every passenger getting on the scale before getting onboard...you'll be OK driving alone!
[emojis deleted due to site limits]
I'll have you know we are all at or below the allotted 150 pounds plus 15 pounds of personal cargo (per the fine print in the chart). I just happen to carry my "personal cargo" in my person!

My daughters, of course, compensate for their petite size by the amount of crap... err... valuable personal possessions... they bring with them.

I will say nothing about my wife.

On a more serious note, I have driven the Pilot several times with every seatbelt in use, all 8 of them, once with 6 adults and 2 children. Only 2 of the adults were over 150 pounds, and we sat in front. It is really an amazingly roomy vehicle. I wouldn't drive far or fast like that, and certainly not with the trailer attached!
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
I will say nothing about my wife.
Smart man Jon
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:57 AM   #10
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Ford Flex towing capacity again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Michigan View Post
Bat Dude, fyi, all of the Ford Motor Company towing specs I found for the 2010-2017 Ford Flex indicates a towing capacity of 4500 lbs. with the Class III towing package. What year is your Flex?
Looking at the Ford website, if you are using a Ford towing package there are two options:

Class III: 4500 lbs
If you actually have a Class III hitch receiver (2"x2") you are better off than you thought you were.

Class I: 2000 lbs
If you actually have a Class I hitch receiver (1.25"x1.25") you'll need to somehow upgrade.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:36 AM   #11
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Hi all & Jon & John,

FYI we will be leaving AZ in the morning and heading NE back to Mich.
Reports are that the lake in front of our house is now 90% open and most ice is gone so it may be safe to return.

The "on-line" average ratings for vehicles are one thing however, the manufacturers GVWR is stated on a fixed plate on each vehicle. Why this is missing from our Scamp is a mystery as they indicated it should be there, but may have been a foil stick on now fallen off?.

This can only be modified by the maker. Our 2016 Flex has this plate (inside drivers door on body) with axle and GVWR values (6K lbs) with the class III tow package. The tow rating for this model is 3,500 lbs. This impacts the transmission, engine etc. and is determined with what our Flex is rated for based on our power plant, not the bigger turbo assisted one.

For sure there is a margin of "safety" with these numbers, like sell by dates on food. If your "day old sea food" has expired it's sell by date, you may not drop dead immediately after eating, then again depending on the condition you may wish you had...


So if a vehicle is a bit overloaded likely it will be reasonably safe, although as I learned the side to side limits especally with big trucks are frequently exceeded. Commercial rigs have loads balanced side to side & front to back so the CAT scales do work for them.

I just wanted to share what I have learned as a heads up.

I need to figure out how to better use the two low and small storage areas on the dinette side. I am hesitant to have loose canned goods in either compartment as boucing around they will hit the electrical power area or in the front, the gas and electric lines to the furnace. At the moment we only have waxed paper, foil and plastic wrap and our stick blender in the aft one (power area) and our small Red Devil vacuum and Forman grill in the front by the furnace.

I am still working on the best way to carry supplies for my plein air painting. Replete with dozens of gessoed masonite painting panels, oil paint, turpentine, mineral spirits, French easel etc. adding +/- 50 lbs to TV.

Then for serious boondocking in the future (Quarzite anyone?) we may need to add 2 5 gal. containers of fresh water at +/- 42 lbs each...

Carolyn did pick up two sets of light weight fast drying microfiber bath towel sets from one of the vendors which will replace the very heavy allegedly fast drying ones we have been carrying. That will save some pounds.

Seems like we are all signed up for the never ending school of learning how to continue life on the road with our wonderful Small is beautiful FB trailers.

Cheers all,

Bat Dude
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BatDude View Post
Hi all & Jon & John,

FYI we will be leaving AZ in the morning and heading NE back to Mich.
Reports are that the lake in front of our house is now 90% open and most ice is gone so it may be safe to return.

The "on-line" average ratings for vehicles are one thing however, the manufacturers GVWR is stated on a fixed plate on each vehicle. Why this is missing from our Scamp is a mystery as they indicated it should be there, but may have been a foil stick on now fallen off?.

This can only be modified by the maker. Our 2016 Flex has this plate (inside drivers door on body) with axle and GVWR values (6K lbs) with the class III tow package. The tow rating for this model is 3,500 lbs. This impacts the transmission, engine etc. and is determined with what our Flex is rated for based on our power plant, not the bigger turbo assisted one.

For sure there is a margin of "safety" with these numbers, like sell by dates on food. If your "day old sea food" has expired it's sell by date, you may not drop dead immediately after eating, then again depending on the condition you may wish you had...


So if a vehicle is a bit overloaded likely it will be reasonably safe, although as I learned the side to side limits especally with big trucks are frequently exceeded. Commercial rigs have loads balanced side to side & front to back so the CAT scales do work for them.

I just wanted to share what I have learned as a heads up.

I need to figure out how to better use the two low and small storage areas on the dinette side. I am hesitant to have loose canned goods in either compartment as boucing around they will hit the electrical power area or in the front, the gas and electric lines to the furnace. At the moment we only have waxed paper, foil and plastic wrap and our stick blender in the aft one (power area) and our small Red Devil vacuum and Forman grill in the front by the furnace.

I am still working on the best way to carry supplies for my plein air painting. Replete with dozens of gessoed masonite painting panels, oil paint, turpentine, mineral spirits, French easel etc. adding +/- 50 lbs to TV.

Then for serious boondocking in the future (Quarzite anyone?) we may need to add 2 5 gal. containers of fresh water at +/- 42 lbs each...

Carolyn did pick up two sets of light weight fast drying microfiber bath towel sets from one of the vendors which will replace the very heavy allegedly fast drying one we have been carrying. That will save some pounds.

Seems like we are all signed up for the never ending school of learning how to continue life on the road with our wonderful Small is beautiful FB trailers.

Cheers all,

Bat Dude
You must be heading to Southern Michigan . Looking out the front window this morning , the ice on the lake is just starting to pull away from the shore. Ice out is probably aways off but will still come earlier than years ago.
Have a nice and safe trip home
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:50 AM   #13
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Looking at the Ford website, if you are using a Ford towing package there are two options:
Class I: 2000 lbs
If you actually have a Class I hitch receiver (1.25"x1.25") you'll need to somehow upgrade.
For those who believe that's all they need they make adapters just for that
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:01 AM   #14
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Have a safe journey!

Batdude,

I apologize for any confusion re tow rating. Ford's online Trailer Towing Selector for the 2016 Ford Flex doesn't mention the 3500 lb rating. The online specs are:

Axle Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight (lbs.) – Engine Configuration Automatic Transmission
3.5L V6 FWD/AWD 4,500(1)(2)
3.5L V6 EcoBoost® AWD 4,500(1)

(1) Requires Class III Trailer Tow Package. (2) Requires weight-distributing hitch on FWD models.
Note: Flex calculated with SAE J2807 method

Much more detail is provided in the writeup, including 2000 lb limit without the Class III Trailer Tow Package.

BUT certainly the door plate on your vehicle overrides the online writeup!

Safe journey and hope for great weather!

-John
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:03 AM   #15
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For those who believe that's all they need they make adapters just for that
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Certainly NOT all that's needed! I was referring to the factory towing packages.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:18 AM   #16
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[QUOTE=BatDude;

I need to figure out how to better use the two low and small storage areas on the dinette side. I am hesitant to have loose canned goods in either compartment as boucing around they will hit the electrical power area or in the front, the gas and electric lines to the furnace.
Bruce:
I had the same problem in the under seat storage in our Casita, exposed plumbing and wiring that I didn't want heavy objects banging against. My solution; I used a piece of those thick puzzle mats cut to fit against the plumbing and wiring and also put loose things into boxes or small plastic tubs. My local Ocean State Joblot store had packages of the mats cheap so I bought a few. I also used them between items that were packed in the truck.
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:02 AM   #17
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Great posts! There is definitely a temptation for people to overload.

We find one of the very most important concerns is of that in proportion of the tow vehicle to the RV wheel bases and overall length.

We know someone who thinks his short SUV can tow a long Oliver II tandem axle. He has had a number of problems as a result such as frame twisting, doors failing to close, the recommended Anderson not being used for load leveling and anti-sway could not be installed because of the inadequacy and unsuitability of the small SUV. The ole if it don't fit don't force it.

We are very careful to balance our load and use lightweight dishes etc. Our Oliver has lots of storage space but we keep a careful eye on what each item weighs. The storage is thoughtfully distributed along the sides. We are more than satisfied in the match between vehicles and tow safety. Both Gs are in proper proportion with more than the usual margin for safety between the two.

People's biggest mistake is to fail to do their math. Sure a smaller tow vehicle may tow a too large RV proportionally but as pointed out wisely it's all about stopping. The hapless person above has burned up his Tow SUV brakes for instance.

Bottomline: Research any brand before purchasing and venturing out.
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