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Old 02-15-2012, 06:42 PM   #81
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Name: Steve
Trailer: 2018, 21ft escape— 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
NW Wisconsin
Posts: 4,500
Tongue Weight

When I was a first year apprentice they told me to drive the company 1/2 ton truck back to the shop , behind the truck was a 5000 lb Ditch Witch on a trailer with no brakes. It took me 1 1/2 hours to drive 7 miles I used both lanes of the highway including the shoulder. .I went from dead stop to a maximum of 20 MPH swaying all the way to the shop with both hands on the wheel and thinking I was going to die. When I arrived at the shop we unhooked the trailer , the tongue flew up in the air and the back end crashed into the pavement . There was NO tongue weight. The ditch witch was too far back in the trailer.. I learned my lesson about tongue weight. ( I was a 19 year old first year apprentice who had never towed a trailer in his life and in those days apprentices did what they were told or they went back to the Union Hall looking for work . I needed the job) "Young and Dumb"
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:06 PM   #82
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Trailer: 2008 17 ft Escape B / 2005 Tacoma 4x4 D Cab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
LOL you have hit the nail on the head Paul! If you put a greater % of tongue weight on vehicle than what the manufactures states it should have and if that vehicle has one of the newer drive system or body designs - as you know there are many different types drive systems out there and they do not all work the same, you may be creating a serious problem in regards to the vehicles stability and safe handling. Who wants to be the one to discover the hard way that there is a real good reason for the manufacture to put the specs they do into their manuals :-)

I don't know about you but I feel safer going with what the engineers who made the car and did the crash testing recommend rather than going with the general rule of thumb that started long before some of the types of drive systems &/or body type designs in place today where even developed.
That's not really what I meant. I was implying that the 10% or more tongue weight "rule' is probably a good idea. If the max TW on an Outback is 200 lbs. I would be reluctant to move things back in the trailer to achieve that number. As has been stated, more tongue weight is better than less.
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:54 PM   #83
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Name: Russ
Trailer: Scamp 16' side dinette, Airstream Safari 19'
California
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More tongue weight usually helps keep a trailer tracking straight and true. If the tow vehicle can't handle the downward force that the trailer requires for excellent tracking, your tow vehicle is too wimpy. I recently added a receiver to the back of my 16' scamp to be able to mount a Harbor Freight storage platform. I knew from past towing experience that the cargo carried would have to be light in weight to preserve trailer balance since the platform is very far aft of the axle. I have a large Rubbermaid storage container that stores some garden hoses and sewer incline props etc. I would estimate the loaded weight of the box at 20lbs. I also have a light sheet metal bbq to add to the rack along with a bundle or two of firewood, charcoal etc. Two weeks ago I loaded the trailer for our first trip. I put on the rack, bbq, Rubbermaid box and fire wood bundle. I also filled my water tank 3/4 full (7-8 gallons) since I didn't know where I could fill up near the camping spot. Inside the trailer I stashed some stuff under the rear dinette, maybe 20 lbs. total. After taking to the road, I immediately noticed some instability, and a "hunting" feel to the steering of my short wheelbase Jeep Wrangler. While going down a gradual hill and applying the brakes the trailer went into a "death dance" side to side. The Jeep absorbed the side forces rather well and quenched disaster, but had I been driving on icy roads here in San Diego It could have been hairy. I pulled over and took all the items from under the rear dinette and placed them in the front bathroom or near the door. Got back in and continued over the mountains. The rig handled like it was on rails! This difference was just from moving 20 lbs. from 4' behind the axle to about 4' in front of the axle. So, I would say balance the trailer for the proper handling, then weigh the tongue, then check if your vehicle is rated for that weight. You're good to go. No magic.
Russ
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:05 PM   #84
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Name: george
Trailer: FunFinder
Missouri
Posts: 455
Another thing that inadequate tongue weight can do, aside from inducing sway, is to induce a bit of "push-pull" on the tow vehicle. It can very very slight, or it can be quite forceful. It's usually at about 2 or 3 cycles per second, but it can be slower than that. This characteristic can be very damaging to driveline components, especially ring and pinion gears.

Essentially what tongue weight does is to make the TV and the towed chassis act more as though they are "one unit". Which is why weight distribution hitches work so well, because they fundamentally turn the hitch into a "bridge", and by transferring weight more evenly across all axles, you step even closer to the concept of the whole rig becoming one unit.
A fifth wheel even more so.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:09 PM   #85
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Name: Jesse
Trailer: 1984 Scamp 13'
Maryland
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Originally Posted by gmw photos
Well, okay, how about this: I just looked online for a 2011 Scooby-Doo Outback. It says, tow capacity 3000 pounds. Tongue weight must never exceed 200 pounds. Tongue weight must be between 8 and 11% of trailer weight. According to my handy dandy calculator, 8 to 11 percent of 3000 pounds equals 240-330 pounds. Hmmm, the plot thickens. Apparently the "tongue weight guys" were out playing golf the day the "tow capacity guys" were having their discussion.
This will really blow your mind: in Europe, where a LOT of people tow with cars, the same Subaru Outback is rated to tow 4,400 pounds and only 185 pound tongue weight. That's just 4%!

The 10% rule is not written in stone. It works most of the time in the US, where most people tow with pickup trucks and drive too fast. In Europe, they usually drive smaller cars and drive slower when towing.
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SOLD! - 1984 Scamp 13 in Maryland.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:29 PM   #86
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Name: george
Trailer: FunFinder
Missouri
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Originally Posted by mcbrew View Post
This will really blow your mind: in Europe, where a LOT of people tow with cars, the same Subaru Outback is rated to tow 4,400 pounds and only 185 pound tongue weight. That's just 4%!

The 10% rule is not written in stone. It works most of the time in the US, where most people tow with pickup trucks and drive too fast. In Europe, they usually drive smaller cars and drive slower when towing.
I also have noticed that in Europe, a lot of the "caravans" as they call them are single axle. You'll see 24' to 28' trailers with a single axle, where in North America and Australia these length trailers are typically tandem axle.

A guess would be ( and that's all the following is: a guess ) that you could likely get by with slightly less measured static tongue weight with a single axle than you could with the same trailer with a tandem. I'll do some poking around and see if I can verify that line of thought.

There are certainly different ways of looking at this. For instance, in Australia, I see some of their caravans are tandem axle, with independent suspension. And yet, over here, I believe it's that Dexter specifies to designers: "not recommended to use independent suspension with tandem axles", and "prohibited to use independent suspension on triple axles".

It has to do with how each axle gets loaded as each wheel passes over the bump. Equa-Flex is one solution to this....but now we're going way off topic.....
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:27 PM   #87
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Trailer: 2008 21 ft Bigfoot Rear Bed
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Originally Posted by gmw photos View Post
I also have noticed that in Europe, a lot of the "caravans" as they call them are single axle. You'll see 24' to 28' trailers with a single axle, where in North America and Australia these length trailers are typically tandem axle.

A guess would be ( and that's all the following is: a guess ) that you could likely get by with slightly less measured static tongue weight with a single axle than you could with the same trailer with a tandem. I'll do some poking around and see if I can verify that line of thought.

There are certainly different ways of looking at this. For instance, in Australia, I see some of their caravans are tandem axle, with independent suspension. And yet, over here, I believe it's that Dexter specifies to designers: "not recommended to use independent suspension with tandem axles", and "prohibited to use independent suspension on triple axles".

It has to do with how each axle gets loaded as each wheel passes over the bump. Equa-Flex is one solution to this....but now we're going way off topic.....
A few years ago I had the boat trailer with the triple axle independent suspension (torsion axles). The hitch height was more critical than on interconnected triple axle leaf springs suspension. This trailer tracked TV perfectly. I wish that my two axles Bigfoot would have an independent suspension. After modifying Bigfoot's suspension with 4 low pressure air springs my trailer tracks well but I would still prefer torsion axles.

With my narrow parking problems I recently evaluated EU style trailer movers directly attached to a trailer and in the process I have not seen a single or two axles trailers in EU with spring leaf suspension. I would like to understand Dexter ‘s love affair with leaf springs. I think that a primary reason for EU style movers not being available in US is difference in tongue weight. Am I still on your decoupling theme Norm?

George.
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