Axle-Less AxleLess Suspension - TIMBREN - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 05-11-2013, 06:37 PM   #29
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There is nothing more or less "axleless" about the Timbren design than any other independent suspension. Like other designs, it does have axles - one stub axle at each hub.

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Originally Posted by franck2cv View Post
Then I bought an old East German model with a long travel horizontal suspension (photo).
That's a nice design!

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Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Not to bring up "Old and Rudimentary" again (but I will anyway), but don't U-Hauls use a similar system of no axle suspension.
U-Haul used "rubber torsion" suspensions essentially interchangeable with the independent suspensions used on most (but certainly not all) moulded fiberglass trailers.

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Originally Posted by ruscal View Post
The replaceable rubber spring looks to be an advantage over the enclosed torsion spring design as far as serviceability goes.
The rubber cartridge of a Flexiride is also replaceable. I agree that this is an advantage, and the Timbren blocks should be cheaper and easier to replace than the Flexiride cartidges - if they are available in a couple of decades. These are the same spring blocks which Timbren sells for other purposes, so availability might not be a problem.

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Originally Posted by GPJ View Post
I believe that many of what we call torsion axles are not true torsion axles -they compress rubber cords rather than twisting them.
The Flexiride design deflects a hollow rubber tube in torsion, so the rubber strains in shear. Rubber springs used on heavy trucks and in some rubber-cushioned fifth-wheel hitch designs deflect flat rubber blocks in shear between steel plates. Other rubber springs "squash" the rubber, but it doesn't really compress - it still moves in internal shear, but not evenly and thus not efficiently. The Timbren design is in the "squash" category, and both Dexter Torflex and AL-KO designs "squash" rubber rods.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post
Etrailer has an article on axle less suspension, comparing it to traditional suspensions.

Timbren Axle-Less Trailer Suspension System - Straight Spindle Only - 3,500 lbs Timbren Trailer Suspension ASR3500S05
Thanks Norm.

I doubt that the writer is interested in suspension systems or understands much about them, since the comparison with "traditional" rubber trailer suspensions is largely nonsense. As others have already noted, the "traditional" design is also available in separate left and right units without an integral crossmember, and none of the discussion of how the rubber springs work means much.

I have no concerns with the Timbren design; it's just the eTrailer article which is questionable.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
There is nothing more or less "axleless" about the Timbren design than any other independent suspension. Like other designs, it does have axles - one stub axle at each hub.
, so availability might not be a problem.
.
I would call them spindles, not axles. I agree with them.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:16 PM   #32
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The hyphen in the middle of "Axle-Less" by Timbren is important: Axleless® is a registered trademark for Dallas Smith Corp's suspension product. Dallas Smith Axleless is another independent trailing-arm suspension like the conventional "rubber torsion" systems and like Timbren's Axle-Less. Dallas Smith Axleless uses air springs; Torflex is available with a combined rubber and air spring system (Airflex)
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jared J View Post
I would call them spindles, not axles. I agree with them.
Okay, then if every company that sells stub axles is misusing the term or I am misunderstanding how they are using it, and an "axle" is a beam joining one hub carrier rigidly to the other, then every independent suspension is "axle less". That makes Timbren right, but far from unique or even unusual.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:20 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Okay, then if every company that sells stub axles is misusing the term or I am misunderstanding how they are using it, and an "axle" is a beam joining one hub carrier rigidly to the other, then every independent suspension is "axle less". That makes Timbren right, but far from unique or even unusual.
I have never thought of an ifs vehicle as having a front axle.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Okay, then if every company that sells stub axles is misusing the term or I am misunderstanding how they are using it, and an "axle" is a beam joining one hub carrier rigidly to the other, then every independent suspension is "axle less". That makes Timbren right, but far from unique or even unusual.
Hmmm... not quite. VW beetles, VW Baywindow buses and Citroen 2cv have front independent suspension joined by a rigid beam. That Beam houses the torsion rods for the Vw's and the steering rack for the Citroen (photo).
There may be other examples I'm not aware of.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:19 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by franck2cv View Post

Hmmm... not quite. VW beetles, VW Baywindow buses and Citroen 2cv have front independent suspension joined by a rigid beam. That Beam houses the torsion rods for the Vw's and the steering rack for the Citroen (photo).
There may be other examples I'm not aware of.
Hmm, not quite to you. If it was joined rigidly, then it wouldn't be independent, now would it?
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Jared J View Post
Hmm, not quite to you. If it was joined rigidly, then it wouldn't be independent, now would it?
Getting semantic here ! Liking it!

In those example, the Axles are mounted rigidly to the chassis and even though completely static they are part of the independent suspension design. Both manufacturers refer to those elements as front axle (replacement parts, maintenance etc...).
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by franck2cv View Post

Getting semantic here ! Liking it!

In those example, the Axles are mounted rigidly to the chassis and even though completely static they are part of the independent suspension design. Both manufacturers refer to those elements as front axle (replacement parts, maintenance etc...).
It's not semantics , he said "if an axle is a beam joining one hub carrier rigidlyto the other (fairly close, can't quote both on the phone). If both sides pivot on it, then it's not rigidly joined.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #39
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Is it potata or potato? It's still a tader, or is it a tater?
What ever that tube that houses the torsion element is called is missing on the suspension shown in the original post. It would be a loose terminology to call it an axle, but marketing departments decide these things and the truth gets stretched. Axle-less rolls off the tongue a little better than "tube that houses the torsion element-less". "tube" or "beam" may be more apt?
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:38 PM   #40
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Jared has it right. The VW, Citroen, etc have a structural crossmember across the car; they don't have a beam which moves with the wheels (because they are independent), and thus in Jared's use of "axle", they don't have one. Same as a Torflex or other conventional "rubber torsion" suspension.

Similar suspensions have been used by several companies, in both front and rear, both driven and non-driven.

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Originally Posted by ruscal View Post
Axle-less rolls off the tongue a little better than "tube that houses the torsion element-less". "tube" or "beam" may be more apt?
Russ
"Crossmember" would be correct, clear, and consistent with normal automotive practice.

Still, my original point is that the Timbren "Axle-Less" may be a fine product but is no more "axle-less" than other designs; if the intention is "crossmember-less", then it has already been mentioned that other brands are also available with separate left and right units without a crossmember.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:46 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Jared J View Post
I have never thought of an ifs vehicle as having a front axle.
I think that's common, but it is a specific use of "axle" which should really be something like "live axle" or "beam axle".

When an off-road enthusiast converts their independent front suspension (IFS) to not be independent any more, they don't call that an "axle conversion", they call that a "live axle conversion" or "solid axle conversion".

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Originally Posted by franck2cv View Post
Both manufacturers refer to those elements as front axle (replacement parts, maintenance etc...).
The combination of these parts (suspension, hub carriers or axle beam, hubs, bearings, drive elements, etc) is an "axle" for this purpose. This reinforces the idea that even without an integrated crossmember, the whole system is still an "axle". I'm not surprised that VW and Citroen follow this normal terminology practice.

Note that every vehicle - motor vehicle or trailer - has a Gross Axle Weight Rating for each suspension/hub/wheel/tire system... even an independent and non-driven front (steer) or trailer axle.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ruscal View Post
Francesca
It seems that a square tube inserted into the pocket of the suspension member would help counter the cantilevered loads that would have had to be resisted by the frame mounts alone. Since our trailers weren't designed to handle those loads It would be good insurance to add the cross member.
That cross member may be tucked up to the frame a little higher than the typical torsion axle tube, but your not buying much more clearance. If you do a lot of off-road travel you could "joggle" the cross member up between the frame rails and back down to buy a couple of inches if there is no other stuff in the way.
Russ
Could it look like this? (shorter tube going into the Timbren unit)
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