Axle-Less AxleLess Suspension - TIMBREN - Page 4 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 05-13-2013, 12:22 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by franck2cv View Post
Could it look like this? (shorter tube going into the Timbren unit)
Franck,
You got it. The joggle would give 2" more ground clearance mid frame. I would put a 45 degree mitered joggle when fabricating the beam. Whoops I meant to say "cross member".

Russ
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:37 PM   #44
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Whoops I meant to say "cross member".

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Yeah watch it !!....
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:42 PM   #45
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Since we are arguing semantics, a live axle and a solid axle are not the same thing.

A pickup or Mustang uses a solid axle. Older quads and three wheelers use a live axle. In those cases the axle is live or solid with no difference of speed possible between ends of the axle. It could also be argued that a welded spool effectively makes a solid or IFS a live axle.

Back to the Timbren - I consider the axle to be the part that allows motive power to be transmitted to the wheels through a common source, OR the place holder of said axle. So the member that connects directly between the two wheels on a leaf suspension setup I would call an axle. The tube that connects between the two trailing arms in a torsion setup I would call a structural member, but not an axle.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:55 AM   #46
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Thank you all for your contribution.

In short.... The Timbren option remains a good theoretical option but it lacks the comforting feed back from an existing FG Timbren equipped trailer owner. Who knows.... It might very well be I....

Franck
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:14 PM   #47
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This installation pic at E-trailer's page on the Timbren sure looks interesting.



It seems like with the added cross member talked about earlier it might work really well for clearance increase on a fiberglass trailer, or at least one that doesn't have a bunch of other stuff hanging under the trailer. Some have black pipes etc. hanging almost at the same height as the axle. The only way to achieve more road clearance on those is to raise up the whole shootin' match.

My Trillium doesn't have any of those underhangs, and the present overall height suits me just fine- especially since it's a couple of inches under the breakpoint for overheight charges on the ferry. It's good to know that there may be alternatives for increasing clearance without getting taller, too.

Thanks again, Franck!

Francesca
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:21 AM   #48
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I like the design very much, but there may be issues for implementation for some of the older trailer designs. I know my Fiber Stream has the original frame, which was thin 1" x 2" hollow tubing. It was selected by the builder to reduce weight as much as possible. With such a fragile frame, I think going to an "axleless" design might remove one of the major strength components!
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:08 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
This installation pic at E-trailer's page on the Timbren sure looks interesting.



It seems like with the added cross member talked about earlier it might work really well for clearance increase on a fiberglass trailer, or at least one that doesn't have a bunch of other stuff hanging under the trailer. Some have black pipes etc. hanging almost at the same height as the axle. The only way to achieve more road clearance on those is to raise up the whole shootin' match.

My Trillium doesn't have any of those underhangs, and the present overall height suits me just fine- especially since it's a couple of inches under the breakpoint for overheight charges on the ferry. It's good to know that there may be alternatives for increasing clearance without getting taller, too.

Thanks again, Franck!

Francesca

Francesca
It would be cool to set it up with airbags and compressor for variable ride height for ferrys and low garage openings.
Russ
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:26 AM   #50
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For example not all torsion suspensions require a cross beam (ie. torsion half-axles do not require a cross beam), and not all torsion axles "twist" the rubber.
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Technically, then I would think it wouldn't be a torsion axle.
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That's very true! I believe that many of what we call torsion axles are not true torsion axles -they compress rubber cords rather than twisting them.
If you think about it, the axle is being twisted due to an applied torque. Therefore it is a torsion axle. The rubber is merely resisting and damping the forces.
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:38 AM   #51
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If you think about it, the axle is being twisted due to an applied torque. Therefore it is a torsion axle. The rubber is merely resisting and damping the forces.
The arm rotates... just like arms in every kind of suspension. It is not distorted in torsion. The steel bar which is is used as a spring in the many variations of torsion bar automotive suspensions is distorted in torsion, and resists with a torque, but there is no such torsion element in the trailer suspensions (such as Dexter's Torflex) which are strangely known by the generic term "rubber torsion suspensions". They, like Timbren's not-so-axle-less Axle-Less, are simply trailing arm independent suspensions with rubber springs.
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:47 AM   #52
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there is no such torsion element in the trailer suspensions (such as Dexter's Torflex)
Brian,
I have to disagree with you.

A thousand pounds or so of bouncing trailer is applying torque to the portion of the axle suspended by the rubber within the housing. The metal has to transfer the torque from the arm to the rubber. To assume the transfer of forces has no torsional element defies logic.

I'll agree that the rubber undergoes a greater elastic deformation than the metal.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:44 PM   #53
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I think we have some confusion between the terms "torsion" and "torque".

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A thousand pounds or so of bouncing trailer is applying torque to the portion of the axle suspended by the rubber within the housing.
I agree. A thousand pounds of axle load on the ends of two six-inch-long horizontal suspension arms applies a torque of 250 lb-ft to each internal bar.

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The metal has to transfer the torque from the arm to the rubber. To assume the transfer of forces has no torsional element defies logic.
A tube or bar transmitting torque is a "shaft", not necessarily a "torsion" anything. The driveshaft of a motor vehicle, for instance, ideally does not deform in torsion at all as it transmits torque. The bar inside the tube of a Torflex or similar suspension is a shaft, which turns but is not supposed to twist at all. Of course it does twist a tiny bit, but that is irrelevant to the suspension operation, which would be even better if the bar didn't twist at all.

Imagine if the rubber was left out of a Torflex, and the bar inside the crosswise tube was instead anchored (at the inboard end) to the tube. If the bar didn't twist, there would be no suspension action at all. If it did twist, then it would be a torsion bar, because it would be the springy part, moving in torsion. BPW - a company in Europe similar to Al-Ko in scale and product line, has a trailer suspension that works exactly this way, called Rondo. That really is a (steel) torsion spring suspension (and so it needs dampers -shock absorbers - which are optional on the rubber-sprung models).

This whole "torsion" discussion comes out of Timbren's accusation that torsion is bad. That is nonsensical in itself, so I think the whole "is it a torsion system" discussion is really a red herring. The importance to me is that people understand how these design really work, so they can decide if the differences are important to them and which one is preferable. Choosing the Timbren design because "the other ones twist the rubber and that's bad" makes no sense when most the others and Timbren actually deform the rubber in nearly the same way and there's nothing wrong with twisting a block of rubber anyway. The ideal way to use a block of elastomer as a spring is probably in shear, anyway.
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:02 AM   #54
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A good explanation, as usual.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:55 AM   #55
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Cool

i just finished a read through this older & interesting thread (since i might be doing some sort of axle fix on my PL)... and the mention of Citroen brought up some fun childhood memories of driving around in the family Citroen DS19. Sometimes my dad would let me adjust the hydraulic suspension. I recall one trip to the Red Bluff round up...big ol' farmer's trucks all about, my dad and i in the Citroen...bad road to the area, he makes the adjustment and the suspension must have put us up another ~6" or so, the farmers in their trucks were looking at us like we were from another planet ; )

...might be fun to have on a TV&TT. No steps needed into rigs at camp!
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:16 AM   #56
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[QUOTE=accrete;420567..........the farmers in their trucks were looking at us like we were from another planet ; )..........[/QUOTE]

Maybe it was the dribbled green blood from the Citroen.
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