Axle-Less AxleLess Suspension - TIMBREN - Page 8 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 01-27-2014, 06:26 AM   #99
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Name: Paul
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Andrew,
Let's see if I finally got this, with the data from the Torflex data (page 3) the no load height of the spindle at a 45 deg start angle (and the High Profile bracket), would be 5.46" below the TOP of the bracket (bottom of frame), and under full load it is 3.52". That means that the most extra height I should be able to get under the axle (lowest point other than hub/tire/spindle) would be somewhere between the two at best. Again, tire size would be the huge impact item there. With the Timbren ASR2KHDS04, I would start at 7.5" below the frame and only lose 1.625" at full load. With it, my worst case should be 5.875", which is better than the best case using the Torflex.
This is all disregarding placement to maintain proper wheel positioning in the wheel well. That is still a little confusing as Torflex says the "overhang" is a max of 10.9", and indicates in their axel drawing you referenced, as being only to the middle of the tire tread. That's a LOT of wheel well space. The Timbren gives that same measurement on theirs as approx. 6".

IF I am reading that right, the Timbren seems the ideal for what I want, and that is primarily clearance. I will never be going more than a few hundred miles (~ up to 500), so towing characteristics don't matter past what is safe and stable. My F150 4x4 has 4" lift and 37" tires and I STILL HANG UP OR SCRAPE several every trip into our claim area, no matter how slow you go! These aren't "rough" roads, they are closer to bad cow paths! According to BLM though, they are "improved, non-paved avenues".

Thanks again. Those simple drawings and figures is what I need. It is damned hard to measure ANYTHIN if you don't know where to measure, and what for!

Paul
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:47 AM   #100
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"Genuine Scamper" - Defined

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Originally Posted by Old_Romad View Post
NOT AT ALL!
One of our "other" senior members was just showing me his "camaraderie" and telling me off about rambling on. Actually answering some comments inc his, and sharing data, which seems only well taken by some if you are a "Genuine Scamper" rather than some guy that just owns on! LOL
I don't want dimensions! I just want to know WHERE to measure WHAT POINTS>

Paul
WOW after only about 27 posts, there is now someone can tell who is a "Genuine Scamper" whatever that is, and who isn't. BTW: Scamper is the trade name of a pop-up slide in camper.

I don't know of anyone fits your derogatory defination of "just owns one", but hoping it's not aimed at moi, I offer my street dreds.

1. I don't own a Scamp...

2. I have recently referbished, and since sold two 13' eggs, a 1996 Lil' Bigfoot and a 2004 Scamp, both of which sold for over $10k, so someone thinks I have at least minimal skills.

3. My current FGRV, a 40 y.o. Hunter was in even worse condition than yours appears to be (minus the well name "patina") and is now in use. Pic of which as here, along with several other FGRV projects I have referbished/restored.Robert Miller's (advocateone)'s Library | Photobucket

4. You hardly write a single post with out insulting someone, only to apologize in a later post.....

5. Maybe, instead of cutting and pasting over 200 pages of information you don't like, you could better use that time working on areas other than the axle and show us some of your work.
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:41 PM   #101
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My quote was very tongue-in-cheek! I admire GREATLY, all who passionately chase their dreams and efforts! The term was admiring, NOT AT ALL derogatory! I am now up to 255 pages of "copies" of their efforts so far!
It also must include you, whichever you own!
As far as someone who "just owns one", here I are! NO interest (lie #1) in making it pretty, just useable. Well, I wish it was, but no interest in making it so, just so admire those that do! I have lived in much worse places than lots of them I have seen so far!
It is like woodworking. Most of the family preceding me were all wood craftsmen, in the truest sense of the word. I, on the other hand, am not ALLOWED, by the family, to touch wood and tools at the same time! I would love to be able to, because woodwork can be so beautiful, but, alas, not when I get done with it!
I just "buy" my wood! Now, electronics... have several electronic and mechanical patents, and for years have designed, or re-designed stuff for others in business. My company (retired from all) Mount Desert West, Inc., did that for gov and civilian companies for 30 years. I have a (now disassembled) small but complete machine shop, lathe, mil, etc., and can usually do anything in metal, but wood! Nope! (sigh)
And I have FUN collecting stuff! I was showing folks last night some of the great jobs on here!

Yes, I do sound like I "get" people, but I just have a hard time with folks dinging me or anyone else just because they feel like it. I know that is hypocritical, doing it back but... I wish we could all just share and enjoy but I seem to be part of a small cadre there. Guess I am just getting old. Was already cranky. As I said, earlier, rude, crude & socially unacceptable. I just tend to respond "in kind" and don't care for those who don't care for or about me. Makes me average I guess. Sure are a lot more on here that are NOT like me though. One of the friendliest groups I have seen. That part is nice, whether I am part of it or not. Love to see the REAL camaraderie displayed. ONE OF THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS IS THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY LIKE ME, EVEN HERE! (even one of us is plenty)
So to the ones who ARE nice, please DO ignore me, as none of that vitriol is towards you. I just never went to social grace class. I spent the money on guns!
I will try better to play nice with others Bob, as you and some others have been so good to me. I guess payback would be to keep it shut on your forum! I been bad! I be good now! I Pwomise! (well, I'll try) Sarcasm is a natural trait!

And, your street creds (dreds?) are good. Already have most of your stuff! LOL

Unfortunately,now I better understand the whole axle thing (not all, but better) I am even more undecided on which to pursue, though the Timbren appears to give better clearance choices. Then Donna's .... Sigh! Decisions..........

Paul
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:47 PM   #102
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A quote from my favorite "famous Doctor"!

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. "~ Dr. Seuss

Says it all......
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:11 PM   #103
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Paul, yes the Timbren looks like a better bet for what you want. But don't get too enthusiastic - I think you need to include the square tube reinforcement running between the two suspension units becasue the Scamp frame just isn't designed to provide the support (mainly torsional) to the Timbrens that they need, most particularly if you want to go off road. So that takes away about 2.5" of the extra clearance but that is still more than a Dexter axle can give you (or indeed any other brand of torsion axle, I believe). Adding that cross-beam inside the existing Scamp frame, without setting fire to the trailer would be very hard.

With the Timbrens you are stuck with the 6" overhang that they provide so you need to work out if that will work for your trailer. So just take offf the wheels, measure the hubface, subtract the overall frame width and divide by two (for two sides). If you get an answer much different from 6", you have a problem.

One alternative to linking the Timbrens with a square tube would be to put one (or two) cross members under the existing Scamp frame and then bolt the Timbrens under those.

PS I hope the Scamp can withstand the sort of banging-around its going to get from this sort of use.

PPS I hope you have a good length ladder available that you can use to climb up to the raised Scamp!
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:57 PM   #104
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Andrew
Now that I know (thank you too) HOW to measure it and WHAT, I will figure out more. I am not really stuck on the Timbrens, just think they "might" give me what I want easier.

The drawing I did of the frame and extra "support" tubes shows what I would do, but I would I think, add another cross piece about where those tubes stop. Those parallel tubes still seem like they wouldn't hurt, adding a little more oomph to the frame also. If I add the tubes below the frame, like the Scamp axle, I could use the parallel tubes (larger width ?) UNDER them as a spacer that would give me back 2" of that. (I think)

I have a neighbor who is a welder who works on confined space oxygen systems. He has a number of thin "blankets" of ???? that keeps the heat from anything in back of it. I don't know if they are thin enough to get between the frame and the plywood. I also have some spray on material (hope I still do) that does the same when flame heat treating steel. Should work, if not....

I don't think I will have a problem with overhang, as I wouldn't mind modifying the wheel well contour dramatically, such as another member did here.

And as to the Scamp withstand the banging, I don't know! I am hoping.
Of course those "roads" are so bad, that anything over a few miles per hour is like my old job as a ROMAD! AIRBORNE!!! One of the folks has brought his 5th wheel (about 24') in but it took him almost 5 HOURS to go the last 2.5 MILES! (and being BLM land we can't leave one there! Because it is a valid mining claim we don't have to observe their time limits on stay, but do have to be "with" any campers, etc..

I am used to "crawling" in, but my daughter (partner in crime and "adventure" partner since age 12) is only about 4'8", so she has a step ladder just for the F150! LOL

Oh, you might want to check ya tires! With all those PS-PPS sounds, it sounds like ya got a leak Bud!!
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:33 AM   #105
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I think a rectangular 'subframe' of 2x2 box would do the job nicely. It's tempting to try to use a single cross-member, but missing all the Timbren bolts would be very hard.

A two-cross-member subframe with the cross-members in front and behind of the Timbrens would be very strong and could be assembled/welded off the trailer. It then needs only some fillet welds to the existing Scamp frame which would not be hard or a fire risk.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:25 AM   #106
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Cross frame

Andrew
That is close to what I envision. Here is a modified version of my earlier drawing for re-enforcing the frame. Obviously the Timbren units (the blue) are not scaled nor in the proper position, but it gives the general idea. 2"x4" tubing w/.125 walls, is about the same price as 2"x2" w/3/16" or 1/4" walls, and actually has more structural strength.

Paul
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Timbren 4.JPG  
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:51 AM   #107
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And as to the Scamp withstand the banging, I don't know! I am hoping.
Of course those "roads" are so bad, that anything over a few miles per hour is like my old job as a ROMAD! AIRBORNE!!! One of the folks has brought his 5th wheel (about 24') in but it took him almost 5 HOURS to go the last 2.5 MILES! (and being BLM land we can't leave one there! !

Hummm you do know that glass breaks right?
This reminds me of when one of my brothers had recently purchased a rather expensive new boat and we decided to take a short cut across Vancouver Island to a fav fishing hole..... turns out the trailer he was using didn't have enough spring in it needed to cushion the ride for the boat over such rough roads. The boat had to be shipped back to the eastern USA to have some fairly serious glass fractures repaired.....
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:38 PM   #108
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Glass! We don need no steenkin glass!

I do think I heard that somewhere tho!
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:16 AM   #109
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I don't think there is any mileage in trying to add reinforcement to (or rather 'inside') the Scamp frame. Not only is it hard to get the reinforcement in there, it will be impossible to weld it properly even if you ignore the fire risk.

So any reinforcment should be added below the Scamp frame as a self-supporting structure built and welded separately (ie, properly). Then add that structure under the Scamp frame and the welds only need to hold it in place, not hold it together.

Are you thinking of using 4x2 with the 4 vertical? That would give you a lot of extra strength plus some extra ride height.

In case you are still thinking of using the old axle, forget it - it can't be built into the new structure well, and would be a lot of extra work. The existing trailing arms connect to solid steel bars running inside that tube, held in place by the compressed rubber. These can't be removed (without either a 100-ton press or a liquid nitrogen bath) unless you try to burn the rubber out, which gets back to the fire risk again. Cut the old axle off, throw it away and build the new support the shape it should be.

Here's my suggestion - four (blue) 2x2 square tubes, or 4x2 if you prefer, with 2" (red) flat bar welded flush with the short sides for the Timbrens to bolt to.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:47 PM   #110
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So any reinforcment should be added below the Scamp frame as a self-supporting structure built and welded separately (ie, properly).

Are you thinking of using 4x2 with the 4 vertical? That would give you a lot of extra strength plus some extra ride height.

In case you are still thinking of using the old axle, forget it
Here's my suggestion - four (blue) 2x2 square tubes, or 4x2 if you prefer, with 2" (red) flat bar welded flush with the short sides for the Timbrens to bolt to.
They "new" tubes I felt would be welded BELOW the frame. I had thought that given the Timbrens clearance already, I would use the 4x4 with the 4 horizontally. A tiny bit more rigidity that way. he old axle would be cut off, but left attached to the frame. It is already beneath the frame, so why not use its tube as an additional brace? I don't see where it could hurt. Essentially I would have the same thing as you proposed, but with one side of the "box" being the old axle tube. See any real disadvantage to that?

Paul
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:31 AM   #111
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Re-using the old axle tube still makes no sense to me. It's in the wrong place where it is now and even if cut off the frame as a cheap source of square tube, it will still be full of solid bar and rubber that will make welding it a problem.

It's rather like saying "Can't I reuse the nails from my old roof on the new roof?"

The detail design needs to be considered rather than just hoping it will work out. The Timbrens need a bolting flange to fix to, so 2x4 on its side won't work on the longitudinal pieces. No harm in 2x4 cross-members though if the 4 is horizontal, most of the strength advantage is given up.

I rather like the idea of 2x4 with the 4 vertical, as it would pretty much guarantee that any rock scraping was on those new cross-members and not on the bottom of the Scamp floor that probably can't withstand that sort of abuse.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:27 PM   #112
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It's rather like saying "Can't I reuse the nails from my old roof on the new roof?"
.
I think I must have miss-communicated my point. Leaving the old axle isn't "part" of anything, but being as it is already there, welded solidly in place, and out of the way (as far as I can tell so far) of any new axle, why not simply leave it there for the additional structural support it supplies to the frame? (such as it is, even a little is worth leaving it. there is no down side)

The 2x4's vertical would definitely give more strength to any impact or scraping, but horizontally would give more strength to its capability of the frame distorting laterally, which is what I would expect from any twisting motion from going over very uneven surfaces. And the longitudinal tubes in the drawing are, as the suggested by Timbren ones, are 2x2. Plus, it doesn't give up the additional 2" it would take away from my height.

And as far as the "detail design" being considered, I thought that was what I was talking about with everyone! Your inputs (all of you) WILL have impact on my choices and final design decision, but some of mine may too!

BTW, I CAN be argued out of anything if it makes more sense. I just try and input all data into the mixer (my shaking head) until something doable gels.

As usual, thanks for the comments. That is how even us old farts can learn.

Paul
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