brake controller

[SilverGhost]

Sorry if I'm hi-jacking here. I hear a lot of people talking about the newer Tekonsa or Prodigy and wanted to know what you think of a Kelsey Hayes brake controller? I have an older model with the hydraulic tie into the tow vehicle. I have gotten a few sideways looks when I explain it to people, and I don't know if it's because people haven't heard of it or because of the way it hooks up to the TUG.

Two things:
1) They aren't sold any more so no newbies are going to be able to go out and get one.
2) I have used this model in the past with work trucks for many miles of safe stopping.

My experience with it is that it is a simple mechanical design with no fancy gizmos to help out towing or break down. Just curious if anyone else had used one or had any incites to add beyond the obvious "you cut into your brake lines???!!!"

Jason

[Francesca Knowles]

Aren't those for use with hydraulic and/or air brakes- or is there a Kelsey-Hayes for electric brakes, too?

Francesca

[Dennis Clinton]

Prodigy P2 is on sale(black friday sale) at CamperWorld this weekend.

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

............
1) They aren't sold any more so no newbies are going to be able to go out and get one.............Jason

I think these were an early attempt to get braking proportionality. The newer models are able to do that with a microchip and an accelerometer. I'm sure these were great and I think the new OEM installed brake controllers operate on a similar principle (monitoring line pressure).

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

... wanted to know what you think of a Kelsey Hayes brake controller? I have an older model with the hydraulic tie into the tow vehicle...

My experience with it is that it is a simple mechanical design with no fancy gizmos to help out towing or break down. Just curious if anyone else had used one or had any incites to add beyond the obvious "you cut into your brake lines???!!!"

I have no personal experience with these. but I'm familiar with the design. Insights? See below...

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Aren't those for use with hydraulic and/or air brakes- or is there a Kelsey-Hayes for electric brakes, too?

While there are many Kelsey-Hayes products and that probably includes systems to run hydraulic or air brakes on the trailer, there are electric brake controllers which work as described by Jason.

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

I think these were an early attempt to get braking proportionality. The newer models are able to do that with a microchip and an accelerometer. I'm sure these were great and I think the new OEM installed brake controllers operate on a similar principle (monitoring line pressure).

I agree that this is a generation of technology which appeared before accelerometer-based systems, but it is not obsolete. Accelerometer-based systems work in proportion to the rate of deceleration. while the type Jason describes works in proportion to the pressure in the tug's braking system; both are proportional, but they are proportional to fundamentally different inputs.

There are at least two other proportional controller designs which respond in proportion to the driver's use of the tug's brake pedal:

• Jordan Ultima - connected by a mechanical cable to the pedal arm (I don't know if this is still in production)
• SensaBrake - uses a presssure-sensitive pad on the pedal under the driver's foot (this system is intended to run hydraulic trailer brakes with air power; I only mention it because of the pedal-force input method)

Yes, I have read that the current pickup OEM controllers use brake system line pressure as their primary input.

The problem with the traditional pressure-input controller is that the volume of brake fluid which moves in and out of the controller in operation can interfere with brake system operation. Modern vehicle manuals typically warn that this is not acceptable, and the OEM systems are obviously designed and tested specifically to work in the vehicles in which they are offered.

A characteristic that one should be aware of is that if you lock up the tug's brakes and keep pushing harder, the hydraulic system will apply proportionately more power to the trailer brakes and likely lock them up, while an acceleration-input system will not brake any harder because of that pedal pressure so trailer brake lockup is less likely. An OEM system is aware of the ABS system state, so it can avoid this problem.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

While there are many Kelsey-Hayes products and that probably includes systems to run hydraulic or air brakes on the trailer, there are electric brake controllers which work as described by Jason.

Jason describes his controller as:

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

I have an older model with the hydraulic tie into the tow vehicle.
Jason

Which is what led to my question.... is it your opinion that the hydraulically-connected Kelsey-Hayes that he's asking about will work for electric brakes?

Francesca

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

Sorry if I'm hi-jacking here. I hear a lot of people talking about the newer Tekonsa or Prodigy and wanted to know what you think of a Kelsey Hayes brake controller? I have an older model with the hydraulic tie into the tow vehicle. I have gotten a few sideways looks when I explain it to people, and I don't know if it's because people haven't heard of it or because of the way it hooks up to the TUG.

Two things:
1) They aren't sold any more so no newbies are going to be able to go out and get one.
2) I have used this model in the past with work trucks for many miles of safe stopping.

My experience with it is that it is a simple mechanical design with no fancy gizmos to help out towing or break down. Just curious if anyone else had used one or had any incites to add beyond the obvious "you cut into your brake lines???!!!"

Jason

Cutting into the brake lines is one of the problems. Another leak point in your brake hydraulic system. You can't move the controller easily from one tow to another. (I have two vehicles I can tow with. Each has a bracket and connector for the P2). The P2 will activate the trailer brakes sooner, you don't have to wait for pressure to build, as soon as the brake lights come on the trailer starts braking.

It was an early brake controller, but not as good or as safe as a newer unit.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Jason describes his controller as...

Which is what led to my question.... is it your opinion that the hydraulically-connected Kelsey-Hayes that he's asking about will work for electric brakes?

Francesca

Okay, one more time more clearly:

Jason describes a controller which is connected to the tug's hydraulic brake system for input, and I assume that he meant to imply that it produces an output to electric trailer brakes.

So, yes to Francesca's question. Sorry for the confusion!

If that's clear, I'll muddy the situation again: it appears that at some point in history, some trailers had hydraulic brakes that were actually connected directly to the tug's hydraulic brake system. Dexter documents show this system, with a 1960's or 1970's looking truck as the tug. The idea of this scares me, it would certainly not be acceptable to any current tow vehicle manufacturer, and I am assuming (always risky, but seems reasonable in this case) that Jason isn't talking about this setup at all... it wouldn't have a "controller".

The old mechanical design of (Kelsey-Hayses or otherwise) hydraulic-to-electric controller is just a hydraulic cylinder pushing against a spring to move the same lever as used for manual control, which turns a rheostat or potentiometer (essentially, a volume control). No electronics at all, which is the simplicity that Jason finds desirable. To move that control is a significant amount of motion, so some brake fluid volume is involved. In contrast, the pressure sensor of a modern electronic system wouldn't affect the hydraulics of the brake system to nearly the same extent, if at all.

[rabbit]

Not much to say in favor of time delay operation? I have the Accupower Pilot. Is the proportional type superior in every situation or only in a panic stop?

jack

[zinco]

has anybody actually wired one of these themselves, i have the blue wire hanging there under the dash, so i just need to find the cold wire on the brake switch, and run a hot and cold to the battery with a circuit breaker. this reminds me of working under the sink just not right for my 67 yr old back of course the rain and snow does not help but i just can't seem to pay the $200 bucks for something i can do myself.

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by zinco

has anybody actually wired one of these themselves, i have the blue wire hanging there under the dash, so i just need to find the cold wire on the brake switch, and run a hot and cold to the battery with a circuit breaker. this reminds me of working under the sink just not right for my 67 yr old back of course the rain and snow does not help but i just can't seem to pay the $200 bucks for something i can do myself.

Yes, I done exactly what you describe, except I ran the blue wire from the back, also. Worst part is bending over and twisting to get it all hooked up.

You said initially that it has the factory tow package with the 7 pin connector. Would that indicate that you could purchase a plug in adapter as opposed to tapping in manually?

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by rabbit

Not much to say in favor of time delay operation? I have the Accupower Pilot. Is the proportional type superior in every situation or only in a panic stop?

jack

Jack I have towed with both an inertia activated control which I am assuming the Accupower Pilot is and a proportional type and IMHO the proportional type gives you a much smoother stop for all types/speed of stops as it starts to work as soon as the drive applies the tugs brakes and matches the same amount of braking power to the trailers brakes. Not sure if thats the info you were looking for or not.

[rabbit]

Thanks Carol. I know my Pilot is inexpensive and barebones in terms of user control and appears to work adequately. I have no experience of other/better designs so looking for a comparison.

jack

[Francesca Knowles]

Per some confusion of terms used:

"Inertial" and "proportional" are interchangeable terms, both denoting a single type of controller. That/those controllers operate differently from "time-based" units, and here's a link that explains how way better than I can:
Trailer Brake Controller Comparison Review Video | etrailer.com

Francesca

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Per some confusion of terms used:
"Inertial" and "proportional" are interchangeable terms, both denoting a single type of controller. Francesca

Nope no confusion Francesca. When looking at the various controllers out there you will find there are actually 3 kinds (or at least 3 I am aware of) that are commonly offered for RV's. Walk into any supplier of controllers and most will refer to the 3 types as Time delay, Inertial and Proportional or at least thats been my experience.

As I indicated I dont know what Rabbits actually is - didnt look it up but its either a Time delay or Inertial type.

There is actually a difference between what is commonly called an Inertial and what is commonly called a Proportional brake controller. You will find more info and examples of the makes/models of them at www.brakecontroller.com

Edit to add: A better explanation of the differences between what are commonly called Inertial and a Proportional controllers can be found at Ehow

[rabbit]

I don't think the Pilot is inertial because the inertial mech requires that the body of the controller can only be mounted a certain number of degrees out of level at which point the inertial lever does not function. I don't think there were any limits on mounting in the instructions.

jack

addendum: checked eTrailer description. Pilot is a "time delay" controller and is not sensitive to positioning relative to a pendulum.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Nope no confusion Francesca. When looking at the various controllers out there you will find there are actually 3 kinds (or at least 3 I am aware of) that are commonly offered for RV's. Walk into an supplier of controllers and most will refer to the 3 types as Time delay, Inertial and Proportional or at least thats been my experience.

As I indicated I dont know what Rabbits actually is - didnt look it up but its either whats either a Time delay or Inertial type.

There is actually a difference between what is commonly called an Inertial and what is commonly called a Proportional brake controller. You will find more info and examples of the makes/models of them at www.brakecontroller.com

There are two kinds of controllers sold at that link- timed, and proportional/inertial.....unless I'm somehow missing the evidence as to which of the non-timed controllers work by anything other than inertia while applying proportional braking. I'm presuming you read the explanatory link I posted earlier as to what that means.



Francesca

[Carol H]

Rabbit your right yours is probable a time delay - used a number of years ago and I think you would notice a big difference under all braking conditions with a Proportional type controller.

Francesca, I am aware of what the meaning of proportional as well as inertial is. What I am attempting and apparently not doing well at ;-) is to try and tell you that the two terms are/have been used in the RV industry to describe two different controllers that work some what differently from each. I realized after I posted the link that they only went so far as to indicate there were indeed as I indicated 3 different types of controllers as I indicated. Didnt take the time to look down to see if they actually showed or fully explained the difference. See the second link for a better example of the differences between the two. I did as indicate own what was called an inertial type controller a few years back and now own what is being called a proportional. Whether or not any of the makers actually still make a what was know as a inertial type is another matter.

[Thomas G.]

Are you guys talking about those with an internal pendulum as opposed to an accelerometer to sense deceleration and provide proportionate braking?

Am I crazy for even entering this discussion?

Yes.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

Are you guys talking about those with an internal pendulum as opposed to an accelerometer to sense deceleration and provide proportionate braking?

Am I crazy for even entering this discussion?

Yes.

Well, CAROL might be...

Though an "accelerometer"-type controller is STLL an "inertia"-type controller that applies proportional braking...

herewith, a description of one such controller: the http://prohitches.com/reflex-brake-c...-accelerometer

The Reflex brake controller with dual-axis accelerometer is the best brake controller Curt makes! This inertia brake system applies equal pressure to your trailer's brakes as is applied to your vehicle's brakes, ensuring the best in stopping performance.

Is it possible that what we're really arguing about is what "proportion" is relative to??????

Francesca

P.S.

Per your second question: Prolly so.