Economical Tow Vehicle

[floyd]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

It's not about what you can afford. I bought my last Mercedes for $3,000 at 200,000 miles. I drove it another 220,000 miles and sold it for $3,500. Along the way, it was "totaled" in an accident and my insurance company ended up writing me a check for $10,500 for it (and let me keep and repair the car). I sold it in 2002, and the current owner has been driving it daily ever since. My father still services it (well, I should say he -now- services it, as I did all of my own service for the six years I owned it. Cheapest car I've ever owned!

By the way, the car has well over 600,000 miles on it, and the owner is thinking of dropping a rebuilt engine in it since the original engine has developed an odd noise.

Oh, and that car has a custom class 3 hitch on it. Towed other Mercedes on a dolly with it many times... Sometimes on interstate trips.

It is about what you can afford, not all about price, I can't afford less than the best reliability. If I wanted a foreign taxi, I'd go for one of those London types.
How much is a Brazillian anyway?

[BCDave]

Originally Posted by floyd

It is about what you can afford, not all about price, I can't afford less than the best reliability.

And yet you like Fords???? (sorry, Floyd - that one was just wide open, and I lack the willpower to resist)

[BCDave]

Originally Posted by floyd

Dave;
Do you remember "No Big Thing"?? It was a Vespa with a 427CID L88 big block Chevy in it. Something you said reminded me of it!

Ahhhh - the Good ol' days. The gasser wars. Stone/Woods/Cook vs Mazmanian. The Fuel Altereds like Wild Willy Borsch & the Winged Express

Sigh......

[floyd]

Originally Posted by BCDave

Ahhhh - the Good ol' days. The gasser wars. Stone/Woods/Cook vs Mazmanian. The Fuel Altereds like Wild Willy Borsch & the Winged Express

Sigh......

They actually sold tickets and raffled that car off for charity over in Kankakee a few years ago!

[Carol H]

LOL I also have an Acura in my driveway that was my daily drive into the city for the first 4 years of its life - so lots of stops and goes & it now has close to 100,000 miles on it and its still on its first set of shoes.... come to think of it, it also has ABS.

On the other hand my last Outback did need new front brakes at about 60,000 miles. The one prior to it got about 75,000 before it needed new shoes.

The situation with my current daily drive is IMHO out of the norm but what can you do when the so called experts - the dealer who should know it well and two shops that specialize in brakes say its not unexpected or uncommon if towing close to its max......

[841K9]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

This probably has a lot to do with it... Especially since most modern cars have 200+ horsepower engines that they really don't need, so they have the ability to burn more gas and require more braking between traffic lights/stop signs.

Modern engines with their stringent emissions standards are simply terrible on fuel for their displacement.
My current 2010 Chevrolet 1 ton gas only gets 12mpg.
My '85 Chevrolet 1 ton CC dually got 18 before I blew up the 6.2 turbo.

Needless to say, once I find a suitable replacement engine for the '85 it is going back to work. Even my boss is starting to miss the "ugly" old truck. (He reimburses me for fuel)

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by 841K9

Full throttle to a dead stop- then repeat.

yeah......"gas, brake, honk ! ...gas, brake, honk !"

what's wrong with that, eh ? ! LOL

Actually, I have an opinion about brake pad longevity, and I'll admit it's nothing more than a wild a$$ guess, but I suspect that over the years various OEM's have gone to softer pad materiel for two reasons. One is because softer pads are easier on rotors, and the other is that for years, mechanics and the industry fought "squeaky brakes". Customers hate squeaky brakes, and I suspect that a softer, more sacrificial pad material is less likely to develop squeaks.

Personally I just had to replace the pads on the front of the Frontier at 55K miles, which is a rather short interval for me. In fairness though, it's been used to tow the horse trailer a fair bit ( and now the camper too ), and also many of the miles on it have been stop and go miles. Due to time constaints and my basic laziness, I had the dealer do it, so it was $160 for pads and a turning the rotors.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by 841K9

Modern engines with their stringent emissions standards are simply terrible on fuel for their displacement.
My current 2010 Chevrolet 1 ton gas only gets 12mpg.
My '85 Chevrolet 1 ton CC dually got 18 before I blew up the 6.2 turbo.

Needless to say, once I find a suitable replacement engine for the '85 it is going back to work. Even my boss is starting to miss the "ugly" old truck. (He reimburses me for fuel)

I wouldn't be surprised that the diesel got better fuel economy than the gas engine. That is to be expected.

One of the big differed in fuel economy is that our modern engines are more powerful and cars and trucks are heavier. Still, the engines themselves are more efficient at what they do.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

I wouldn't be surprised that the diesel got better fuel economy than the gas engine. That is to be expected.

One of the big differed in fuel economy is that our modern engines are more powerful and cars and trucks are heavier. Still, the engines themselves are more efficient at what they do.

The '85 was far more powerful than the '10. And, according to the scales, weighed a good deal more. The fuel economy difference is far more than the usual gas to diesel discrepancy. Especially considering that I built that 6.2 purely for power.

Modern vehicles are no more efficient than vehicles built 20 years ago. They just have smaller engines.

Does anyone drive one of those older GM trucks with a 305v8? They could get 22 mpg!

[Borden]

Originally Posted by DonFromTexas

I can imagine there will be those that claim you need a V8 to tow with, but with a little ol Scamp all you need is - an econobox Honda Fit. Follows along like there is nothing back there, pretty good wind today too.
[IMG][/IMG]

Boler 13’ trailer that is light weight.
We towed with a Toyota Echo 4 door sedan a small trailer and they are not rated to tow by Toyota they make a hitch for it and it worked fine for 5 years; still we have alternatives many 4 cyl cars are rated too tow.
The 4 cyl Corolla with no extras is rated to pull 1500 lbs. and the 4cyl Imprenza unenhanced is rated to pull 2800 lbs. these are just two of the many available.

(In our area there was no legal limitation to pulling with the Echo if hooked up correctly and all road rules followed Towing limit on Echo was only a recommendation I do not promote other doing like wise it is up to you. Load is limited to vehicle limit of passangers cargo and tongue weight total plus the 50% brake rule) they do make an off the self hitch for it

They get better mileage while towing than some V8 units get with just a driver so why waste the gas instead take your lovely lady out to dinner.

In the end gas prices will either stop us from camping or we will adapt.

[Borden]

P.S. you may have read 5.5 and 5.7 for Toyota Corolla gas rating in my prior posts that is litters per 100km. Still 5.7L per 100km is good but our reg driving average around town is lower than they rate it. That is probably down hill with a tail wind on a full moon
Have had to convert to us 4 litters and ca 4.5 litters per gallons
We loose mileage while towing but still find it as good as some of the ratings I am reading for not towing with a V8; V8, V6, 4cyl is a choice but do we need a 440 V8 to pull a light weight 13' package.
The only thing I feel is needed is common sense; make sure it is legal setup for your tow vehicle and trailer, proper insurance, follow the local road rules and safe driving practices.

>Hitch class: Our trailer needs a class ll as it is over 2000 lbs so in our case we have class lll no class ll available for a Corolla (13' will tow with a class l)
>WD System: Boler manual recommends a WD system and that means a class lll CamAmRV helped us with this; (13' will not likely need this)
>Sway bar just a good idea
**>Brakes: Road rules say if trailer is under 3500 lbs you do not need trailer brakes but also says if the trailer is over 50% of tow vehicle weight you need brakes. You may not live in my area and your rules can be different. We have dealer installed unit but they can be purchased at RV dealer and brakes can be added to trailers if needed (required by law for us)
>Tans axle cooler and factory tailer towing safety system: recommended to us
>Safety chains they too have rules you can check them out
>Breakaway switch added as required with trailer brakes
>Proper mirrors for our setup
>Limit for car: 825 lbs on ours that includes tongue weight, passengers, and cargo we have a minimum tongue weight of 175 lbs
tongue set at 200 in calculations
Wife, myself two small dogs 380 rounded up
cargo we keep trunk empty set at 50
380+200+50=630 825-630=195 to spare

I still use a Corolla to tow just like to save on gas and it works
In the end I can not advise others to tow a 17' with a Corolla even if it is legal (depends on setup and trailer weight), have said would buy an Imprenza for the extra pulling room in future with our trailer

[Carol H]

Borden I with all due respect suggest you carefully read the following before you hook up that 17' trailer that is close to double your towing specs of your Corolla.

I would also ask that should you continue to promote to others that they follow your practices that you at the very least advise them that by taking your advise they may find themselves facing some serious legal consequences.


From Dangeroustrailers.org Towing The LIne


"Towing beyond any vehicle's manufacturer's weight ratings-or without regard to the properly-equipped limitations a vehicle's manufacturer places on the towing vehicle-relates directly to the "Law of Negligence", and places you, the driver, bearing the full weight of liability issues.

"A plaintiff who was injured as a result of some negligent conduct on the part of a defendant is entitled to recover compensation for such injury from that defendant," quotes Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California.
"One test that is helpful in determining whether or not a person was negligent is to ask and answer the question whether or not, if a person of ordinary prudence had been in the same situation and possessed of the same knowledge, he or she would have foreseen or anticipated that someone might have been injured by or as a result of his or her action or inaction.

"If the answer to that question is 'yes,' and if the action or inaction reasonably could have been avoided, then not to avoid it would be negligence," warns Alexander. (For more about this subject go to San Jose Personal Injury Lawyer : San Francisco Injury Attorney : Alexander Hawes, LLP.) "

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Carol H

""I would also ask that should you continue to promote to others that they follow your practices that you at the very least advise them that by taking your advise they may find themselves facing some serious legal consequences.""
"

You quote Bruce Smith without citing any credentials, and he writes inconcisely without enumerated references, you might as well simply say that his text is your opinion.
If the hyperbole in this "discussion" continues to escalate, the only logical end is a paranoia so intense that many will stay home and watch travelogues, and I can then buy all those "worthless" trailers for a dollar each!
BTW;
I'm assuming you are not a lawyer, but if you slept in your Scamp last night, that should certainly trump a "Holiday Inn Express"...don't you think?

[FelixVW]

My 2.0 gas Beetle with my 1968 Eriba Puck. The Puck was 700 lbs, well under the Beetle's tow rating. Slept two, two burner stove, ice box, sink with fresh water tank. The car now has 300k miles and when rebuild time comes, I aim to switch to a Tdi.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by FelixVW

My 2.0 gas Beetle with my 1968 Eriba Puck. The Puck was 700 lbs, well under the Beetle's tow rating. Slept two, two burner stove, ice box, sink with fresh water tank. The car now has 300k miles and when rebuild time comes, I aim to switch to a Tdi.

Love your trailer! Does it have that weird heater in the floor??

[FelixVW]

Originally Posted by floyd

Love your trailer! Does it have that weird heater in the floor??

Thanks No, mine didn't have a heater. The basic body style went into production in 1958 and survives to this day, somewhat enlarged and built in France, no longer Germany. The Hymer-Eriba models included the Puck, Faun, Familia, Triton, and Odin- just extensions of the same body adding more windows and a longer pop-top- the larger models generally got amenities like heaters.

Anyway, the Beetle towed well and got around 30mpg on the highway, though mountains and headwinds could cut that by 5 or so. Wish I still had that trailer but I had no place to work on a restoration- looking for a Puck or Burro now in good shape.

[Carol H]

Floyd are you speed reading again! perhaps you missed where it reads "quotes Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California. " and "for more info (For more about this subject go to San Jose Personal Injury Lawyer : San Francisco Injury Attorney : Alexander Hawes, LLP.) "

Unless Mr. Alexander has had his law licence suspended since this was written I suspect its a good bet he has the credentials to speak to this topic.

As one member here likes to saw on this topic "As to liability, one should not live in fear but rather embrace knowledge."

I totally agree with that & suggest that it would be very hard for someone to make a decision in regards to what level of liability they wish to take if they dont have the knowledge of what the laws of liability are.

[Borden]

Carol H my setup is legal in Ontario Canada do not know if that would be the same in San Francisco. I do follow all the rules as I suspect we all do. The opening picture setup is also probably safe and legal.

Sway-bar and WD is not law; car sits fine without them but just feel safer with the extra and boler recommends one. (maybe for windy days?) Ontario would only requires WD to correct undue sag at connection if present. Also use ST trailer tires though not legally required.

As to Subaru Imprenza never owned one but have relative with one and like it his trailer is heaver and required the extra. May not need WD as its recommended limit is 2800 lbs. and low tongue weight requirement.

The original message is more about what is needed to pull a 13' boler and that is not much. Even my Echo 4 door sedan (largest Echo) was legal as setup we pulled only 800 lbs and was safe I might add, worked very well (this is not a recommendation to others just an opinion).
At Toyota they do not recommend towing with any Echo but sell a hitch for it. Recommendation and law are too different topics. The question is was is it legal, is it safe and yes it was.

I make no claims and never have as to how others should tow but agree with the original post.

The Corolla would make an excellent tow vehicle for a 13' boler or other light weight trailer. Imagine if a tow package was added! and they would get even better mileage.

Not hard to add brakes if wanted or needed, even a transaxle cooler can be added

We have a 50% rule in Ontario requiring brakes on an trailer that is 50% of the weight of the tow vehicle or more. This may not be so in your area wonder how many are a miss on this rule.

Have heard lots about rules that are not real especially when it comes to tires lots run car tires or LT even watched as on expert recommended ST and one person only came away form the exchange with it was OK to run LT as that is what they wanted the get from it; not that it was better too use ST as put forth by the expert. They got what the wanted out of it: my response was nothing was not my place and it was after all legal.

Just as the rules for trucks are different for cars some have stated truck rules for cars in exchanges that do not apply but again they are only trying to be helpful as you are and it is good to hear all idea and I do not discredit your opinions good to hear them

It for me is about having fun and not making the oil company's and richer than needed while being legal and safe.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Floyd are you speed reading again! perhaps you missed where it reads "quotes Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California. " and "for more info (For more about this subject go to San Jose Personal Injury Lawyer : San Francisco Injury Attorney : Alexander Hawes, LLP.) "

Unless Mr. Alexander has had his law licence suspended since this was written I suspect its a good bet he has the credentials to speak to this topic.

As one member here likes to saw on this topic "As to liability, one should not live in fear but rather embrace knowledge."

I totally agree with that & suggest that it would be very hard for someone to make a decision in regards to what level of liability they wish to take if they dont have the knowledge of what the laws of liability are.

Never was much a fan of Evelyn Woods, but I must admit to less than a perusal effort. Upon a second look I did see the quote made in Bruce's article from Mr Alexander. Bruce's credentials are also stated in the article... he can type.
As for Mr. Alexander...I am not from California, but I have yet to see a trailer behind an ambulance.
Bear in mind, that I have not advocated towing beyond the capacity of any Tow Vehicle, and have been exasperated in my attempt to get anyone here to define terms. Especially when applied to capacity and rating, or quotes and enumerated references.

[screaminbuddha]

Until we upgraded last year with a Subaru outback ( 4 cylinder), we towed our 13' Boler with a 4 cylinder Volkswagon Passat. We went up and down the Rockies for a month, no problems, and no brakes on the Boler. Ours weighs around 1500 lbs loaded.