FWD or AWD?

[frank_a]

If tire scrub occurs at all, tow with something else, or change the tow equation somehow. I don't think tire scrub has anything to do with FWD or AWD or 4WD, it's a weight/suspension problem. If I couldn't change the tongue weight, I'd get air shocks.

Frank

[Jon Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That's the Hybrid (only) Highlander system. It's a slick solution, not requiring any driveshaft to the rear, but it depends on the high-power electrical system of the hybrid to work.

The RAV4 has no electric motors, but (like the majority of AWD systems) it uses a clutch to send power to the extra drive wheels (rear in this case) only when required.

The non-hybrid Highlander appears to still have a centre differential, which is the traditional way to send equal torque to both axles all the time.

You do have the ability to lock the rear wheels of the RAV4 in 4 wheel drive with a dashboard push button. Stays locked until you hit 25MPH, or switch it off. Very handy for driving on wet grass, etc.

[Evan Friesen]

This seems pertinent to comparing the different AWD claims by manufacturers.

The truth behind the badge - All-wheel-drive systems and how they work (photos) - CNET Reviews

I have a Subaru, and know that it isn't locked into 50/50 AWD - I believe I read somewhere that automatic transmissioned Subby's can send as little as 10% to the rear most of the time - manual transmissioned can send as little as 20%. I don't recall why there is a difference. It could also depend on the model year. I have a 1998 Forester. I can't say that the AWD gives me any big advantages by itself.

I would say the BIGGEST advantage I have experienced for rain/sleet/snow driving is having snow tires.

[Jared J]

Subaru starts out at 50/50, and is that way most of the time. Yes it can vary it, that's the point. Many "awd" systems will only deliver 10-20% to the rear wheels, which (IMHO) isn't true awd. I don't know how you haven't seen an advantage to awd. I went to park in wet grass at a show, and had to drive down a path that was had a steep slope above and below it, with parking on top of the upper slole. A half ton chevy, and f350 were taking runs to get up the slope, in 4wd. I drive down the bottom slope to get around them, put the car in reverse, went right up the bottom slope, the level path, and right to the top of the other slope and parked. It never spun a tire, and plowed a path with the trailer hitch.

You should have seen the looks on the faces of those guys when I walked past them, still trying to ram their way up the hill, priceless.

Again, I don't think I could justify the cost of awd for only 10-20% of the power.

Edit: it looks like they upgraded the awd system on the 2013 traverse, from what I can find. When my parents were looking a few years ago, many owners reported being stuck and the rear wheels not moving. Now it sounds like it can get a 50/50 split.

[Radar1]

We tow our 16' Scamp with either a RWD Dodge Dakota, or our AWD Subaru Outback depending on how much "stuff" we are taking. Both do well, but I love the extra traction that's available on our AWD Subaru when we are driving on gravel or wet roads, or maneuvering in a gravel camping spot. We did have a popup once that we had to tow with our FWD Ford Focus cross country due to a move, and we noticed that if the roads are wet, then the front wheels tend to spin a bit when you start from a stop, which would also be an issue with wet grass or gravel.

[Radar1]

Originally Posted by Carol H

I tow with a Subaru AWD no problems. In fact it gives an amazing solid tow even in high wind conditions.

I have to go up mountains at all hours of the day and night often unplowed and have found the Subaru to be one of the best in snow - yup have tried a number of other vehicles - SUV's and P/u's. Subaru has what they call a Symmetrical All Wheel drive which as I understand may be a little different than some of the other AWD systems as it does send power to all wheels simultaneously all the time but as mentioned does increase the power to which ever wheels have the best traction in slipper conditions. Down side is due to this AWD system the gas mileage for an engine of its size isnt the best.

Consumers Reports just tested the 2014 Subaru Forester with CVT and rated it as getting the best mileage of any of the small SUVs they tested, even though it has AWD.
The downside is that they downgraded the tow rating to 1500 lbs this year.

[frank_a]

Originally Posted by Radar1

We tow our 16' Scamp with either a RWD Dodge Dakota, or our AWD Subaru Outback depending on how much "stuff" we are taking. Both do well, but I love the extra traction that's available on our AWD Subaru when we are driving on gravel or wet roads, or maneuvering in a gravel camping spot. We did have a popup once that we had to tow with our FWD Ford Focus cross country due to a move, and we noticed that if the roads are wet, then the front wheels tend to spin a bit when you start from a stop, which would also be an issue with wet grass or gravel.

Boy, we have the same '08 Outback as you guys, and it has a tow capacity of like 2700#s, vs. my '09 4 cyl standard shift GMC Canyon with a tow capacity of 2100#s. We tried pulling our Sunline T-1550 with the Outback once, and never again. We tow it with the truck now, and the truck handles it much better, even though we're over the tow capacity! Maybe the Outback would tow a streamlined egg with less problem. We're looking to trade the truck in on a tow vehicle with larger tow capacity, and keep the Outback a few more years.

Frank

[Radar1]

I was pleasantly surprised when I tried towing our Scamp the first time with our Outback. That was more of a test to see if it could handle it empty, and it did well. I think the Scamps's aerodynamics definitely help since drag is a major factor at highway speeds. We do need to keep the weight down on the tongue by removing one of the propane tanks, but fully loaded (empty grey and black tanks but full fresh water) our Scamp comes in at 2460 lbs, which is lower than the Subaru 2700 limit. If we have heavier loads in the tow vehicle or are facing any big mountains we use the truck.

[Carol H]

I am pretty happy with towing with the Outback actually was surprised when I first started towing with it as to how stable it is. Been towing with it for 6 years with no problems. Only down side to it is the low tongue weight cap which I need to fudge a bit over to get my set up right. Although a pull one of the lighter 16' found here I personally think the Outback is better suited to a 13'.

[accrete]

: ) I'm going through some older posts in areas of interest & thought i'd add our rig's set up. Some of you know we tow with a full size 2010 chevy AWD 1/2 ton van (image link) with a light ~600lb "WESTY" style interior build including the high roof (image link). This particular version of van has chevy's full-time transfer case that employs a center differential with viscous limited slip with a locking rear dif option installed. We are towing a Parkliner (2013 was 1st season) and have had no issues getting into/out-of the forestry camps we frequent with muddy roads, small inclines, etc.

I realize for many the idea of towing such a light (~2500 loaded) trailer with such a beast (5.4L v8 full size van) might be overkill, though i will add this can give one the additional living space that some might be looking for in a rig combination. Our real world millage only goes down ~1.5 to 2 mpg when towing and the van still has plenty of get-up-and-go to pass going up a mountain pass highway. Typically we see ~16mpg towing on the highway which we are fine with since in effect it is a two bedroom articulated motorhome

Happy Trails,
Thom

[frank_a]

Well, I am the one that started this thread, and while we just bought a new 4wd Escape with the ecoboost 2L motor (and 240hp) and a tow capacity of 3500#s for the little woman, I just bought a "loaded" 2001 Ford F-150 XLT Super Cab 4wd with a 4.6L small V-8 and 5600# tow capacity. The truck only had 94,000 miles on it, was always garaged, nary a ding, never plowed and never towed a thing. The tow thing is gonna change...

Frank

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by frank_a

Boy, we have the same '08 Outback as you guys, and it has a tow capacity of like 2700#s, vs. my '09 4 cyl standard shift GMC Canyon with a tow capacity of 2100#s. We tried pulling our Sunline T-1550 with the Outback once, and never again. We tow it with the truck now, and the truck handles it much better, even though we're over the tow capacity! Maybe the Outback would tow a streamlined egg with less problem. We're looking to trade the truck in on a tow vehicle with larger tow capacity, and keep the Outback a few more years.

Frank

Frank, You implied the Subaru had difficulty towing your Sunline 1550. We towed a Sunline 1550 for two years with our Honda CRV including a cross Labrador trip and two loops of the USA. The Labrador part was the toughest because it was mostly gravel with many 10% grades. Though we have only 'when needed 4 wheel drive', we never had a problem towing the Sunline though our mpgs were less than when towing a fiberglass trailer.

Though you did not define the trouble(s), it would be interesting and instructive to know the problems you had towing with your Subaru.

I also find it interesting in that it seems you've decided against the Escape as a tow vehicle. Is there a reason for this?

[frank_a]

The difficulty pulling with the Outback was just that; in a word, difficult! I believe it was a frontal area problem. No problem with it pulling our classic boat at all, but that baby is streamlined and low.

We fully plan on towing with the Escape. Why did you think otherwise? We may pull it with my "new" old truck, but I needed the truck for a number of reasons. The GMC had no power anything. The only options on it were a factory tow package and locking differential. This may sound stupid, but my right shoulder is so damaged I cannot reach across the truck to roll or unroll the window anymore. So I debated keeping the truck and for about $300 and a weekend could have installed power windows. The 4 cylinder was so underpowered I decided to get a larger truck again, like all the trucks I've had over the last 40 years. The Canyon was the 1st small truck I ever owned. Also, because of continuing back problems, I wanted an automatic, so when we sold the Subaru, I took that $, paid off the GMC so we can sell it free of lien, and bought this F-150 with cash so we don't have a payment anymore for my truck. That's a good thing for a number of reasons including the extra gas the F-150 consume.

We still expect to buy a new ParkLiner and tow it with the Escape on long trips. We may use the F-150 for it too, and may end up using it exclusively. We'll just see what happens. The F-150 is very roomy, can easily fit 6 people, or Gail & me, Buckley the schnoodle, and a bunch of other stuff no problem. It is in near mint condition. I lucked out really.



Frank

[honda03842]

Wishing you well with both your truck and Escape.

[Carol H]

I suspect something that needs to be kept in mine is that people who have towed with the a number of different vehicles and other types of equipment whether it be boats, TT trailers or horse trailers over the years tend to develop a personal sense of what a solid tow vs a marginal tow feels like. Someone whose towing experience consists of having towed with only one vehicle in their time even if with different types of trailers, may feel very differently about the suitability of their tug and tow combo than the party who has towed with a number of different vehicles & equipment combos over the years.

[honda03842]

Nothing against a "personal sense of what a solid tow feels like", I was just looking for a definitive response, seeking to learn from the experience of others since it is unlikely another brand of tow vehicle is in our future.

[Bob Miller]

High h/p, high MPG, late model vehicles don't always also have the high torque needed for towing. Look at both hp & torque, and at what RPM they peak, if you are going to buy to tow.

BTW: "the little woman", I though that was the name of a book.... certainly never a referral to anyone in my family.

[honda03842]

Bob,
I look at reliability (we buy for 10 years), adequate hp/torque and good mileage and since it's our only vehicle, something that's a good daily drive.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by frank_a

The difficulty pulling with the Outback was just that; in a word, difficult! I believe it was a frontal area problem. No problem with it pulling our classic boat at all, but that baby is streamlined and low.

Frank

Hi Frank. Looks like you are saying the outback was not powerful enough. Is that primarily your gripe with towing the Sunline?

Years ago we had a lady walk up to us at this site in Algonquin park. She asked if we were towing our Airstream with the Nissan Quest. We said yes and it worked fine. She couldn't believe it. She then told us they tried to tow a very small pop up with their Quest (same model and year as ours) but it just didn't work. She said they had the vehicle into the shop but they had no solutions. I would hazard a guess their van had a drivetrain defect robbing then of power????

[Jared J]

Originally Posted by MC1

Hi Frank. Looks like you are saying the outback was not powerful enough. Is that primarily your gripe with towing the Sunline?

Years ago we had a lady walk up to us at this site in Algonquin park. She asked if we were towing our Airstream with the Nissan Quest. We said yes and it worked fine. She couldn't believe it. She then told us they tried to tow a very small pop up with their Quest (same model and year as ours) but it just didn't work. She said they had the vehicle into the shop but they had no solutions. I would hazard a guess their van had a drivetrain defect robbing then of power????

As carol said, people have different definitions of "work fine" for towing. I can set my cruise on 75, and it will never drop from wichita to Minneapolis, and the transmission will only kick down once towing my fifth wheel. To me, that's working fine. Towing at 55, and dropping to 40 on hills is some people's definition of "works fine". I would be ripping my hair out and have a leg out the door trying to help it.