Going crazy in the world of GVWR, etc - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV
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Old 08-15-2016, 08:06 PM   #21
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Name: Dean
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Hi Jill,

Your tow vehicle has a GVWR.

Your trailer has a GVWR. For example, my Casita 17' Freedom Deluxe has a GVWR of 3,500 lbs. It actually weighs 2,910 lbs. This means I can put up to 590 lbs of stuff in the Casita (2910 + 590 = 3,500).

Given that you are considering a tow vehicle that is rated to tow 5,000 lbs, that means you should be in good shape to tow a trailer with a GVWR of 3,500. In fact, that means you are towing at 70% of your tow vehicle's capacity. Many folks recommend that you don't tow at 100% of your vehicle's capacity. Given many 16' and 17' fiberglass rigs have a GVWR of 3,500 lbs that means your tow vehicle with a tow rating of 5,000 lbs is towing at 70% of its maximum. Nice. Many folks recommend towing at no more than 70% to 80% of your tug's capacity.

You should be able to find the GVWR on a tow vehicle and trailer.

On the other hand, the GCWR is the COMBINED weight and is the maximum weight recommended of your loaded tow vehicle when towing your loaded trailer. Manufacturers do not have to report the GCWR of a vehicle, though most do. For example, my Kia Borrego is rated to tow 7,500 lbs. I also know it's GVWR, but not its GCWR. I have even called the Kia corporate offices. This number does not exist. However, am not too concerned given my tow rating and that I am towing a trailer that weighs less than 3,500 lbs.

Wishing you the best! Keep us posted.

Take care,

Dean
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:34 PM   #22
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And...this is why I'm Fueled-up for this thread!!!! OOOPS! My world is tilting!
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:43 PM   #23
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Name: Jill
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Quote:

On the other hand, the GCWR is the COMBINED weight and is the maximum weight recommended of your loaded tow vehicle when towing.... For example, my Kia Borrego is rated to tow 7,500 lbs. I also know it's GVWR, but not its GCWR. I have even called the Kia corporate offices. This number does not exist. However, am not too concerned given my tow rating and that I am towing a trailer that weighs less than 3,500 lbs.
Thank you! I have asked, read, researched, and nothing. I don't think this number exists, either.
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:50 PM   #24
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I cannot begin to express my appreciation to ALL of you for the clarifications, links, ideas, and examples.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It takes time to write a post and for some of you, additional time to give me information that you've found. I truly appreciate each and every post.

I only hope the folks I met on the road in the future are as nice as y'all.
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:31 AM   #25
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Brian, I sent you a reply to your pm, but your box is full.

Thanks!
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:49 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
Jill, 5000# is the tow rating for the Kia Sedona V6 AWD models with factory tow package...
Oops... meant Sorento, of course. Being from AZ, Sedona rolls off the fingers more easily...

BTW, I checked the specs on the Sorento V6. Torque rating (which is what matters for towing, not horsepower) is pretty close to my Pilot, so I'd expect similar performance. The Kia V6 peaks at a higher RPM (bad), but it has more gears in the transmission and a full manual mode (good).

My dream combo these days is a Scamp 16 (about 2500# loaded) with a Kia Sorento 2.0L Turbo (3500# with tow package). The turbo generates more torque at lower RPMs, performs better at high elevations, and gets better mileage not towing than the V6.

But my budget says I'll have my Pilot and 13' Scamp for the foreseeable future!
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill H. View Post
Thanks, Steve . . . .

So I guess what I really don't understand then is how some folks on here are pulling a 16' trailer with, what appears to me, smaller or similar SUVs.

What is the point of having a tow rating of 5K if the car weight takes up most of that number in its own weight? (Thinking of the math here)

Thanks!
There are always people out there towing trailers with small tow vehicles. Whether it is a good idea or not? No thanks.

At every campground, I see people towing large trailers with small vehicles. They say they can do it, but... I saw a camper towing their trailer with a Honda Fit once. Honda Fit?

"Here is what the 2009 Honda Fit owner's manual has to say about that: "Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can void your warranties.""

Heaven forbid you get in a crash. Try explaining your tow vehicle was not rated for the trailer you were towing. Is the goal to set a new record, smallest tow vehicle for a given trailer?

The key rating on most vehicles is "payload capacity". Payload on mine is anything in my vehicle: passengers, luggage, pets, stuff. It also includes the trailer hitch and more importantly, hitch weight. Dry weights on most trailers are a totally joke. GVWR on the trailer is more meaningful.

Its amazing how fast you can use up payload. In my case, I have two passengers (driver and passenger), one dog, truck canopy over the bed, lots of gear, hitch weight and tongue weight. It really adds up. In addition, one "problem" with some FG trailers is the lack of storage. Mine is pretty short in that regard. So a lot of stuff ends up in my tow vehicle, consuming part of the payload.

Do you want to be marginal or even under-rated on towing, or do you want margin to spare? I've done both and am much more comfortable with the extra margin I currently have.

FWIW, I tow my 17 foot Casita with a Ford F150 pickup. The nicer trucks are very comfortable, I call them my generation's version of a Lincoln Town Car/Buick Park Avenue (cars my parents drove).

The car companies do us no favors on tow "ratings". My truck comes with a 9,800 pound tow rating. But it only has a 1450 pound payload. Its basically IMPOSSIBLE to hook a 9,000 pound trailer up to my truck and NOT exceed the payload limit. My low payload essentially cuts my tow rating to about 5000 pounds (hitch weight runs ~ 13% of trailer weight (real trailer weight, not the ridiculous dry weight.

We love the western USA, tend to take long trips through the mountains. And we live in the mountains of NC (yes we do have mountains here). Anyway, the ability to travel at normal highway speeds, up and down mountains, is a pleasure. And the towing fuel economy is surprisingly good with my 5.4L V-8. My theory is the tow vehicle is not working nearly as hard.

In NC, regardless of the weight of the trailer and tow vehicle, if the trailer came with brakes you are required to hook them up. Trailer brakes are a good idea anyway.

Ford has a nice trailer brake controller that is an option, and it plugs right into the dash. Why they didn't just include it with the towing package is beyond me. Now my truck is a 2010, stuff that wasn't included then is included now.
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Old 08-17-2016, 03:17 PM   #28
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Remember car rules are different then truck rules.
We pull with a car.
Check your local ministry for local rules.
California has a 1000 lb brake rule or places like BC and Ontario have a 50% twist if the trailer is 50% of the weight of the towing vehicle or more you need trailer brakes regardless of the vehicle recommended limit. Toyota puts or limit greater than we can pull without trailer brakes.
You want to be legal in all the places you tow in. Play safe and have fun.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:33 PM   #29
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Somehow we always come back to the same two extremes: the self-proclaimed engineers who insist you can safely tow a 21'er with a Smart Car as long as you have "the right set-up," and the fear mongers who insist you're placing the universe in danger if you try to tow a 13'er with anything less than a heavy-duty pick-up truck.

Sure, payload does matter. This chart in my Honda owner's manual shows how the tow rating is reduced as more passengers (or equivalent cargo) are loaded in the vehicle:
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Those numbers take into account GCWR, GVWR, GAWR, payload, etc. Notice how the tongue weight limits drop proportionately faster than trailer weight limits, reinforcing my earlier statement that the rear axle weight rating is often the problem.

Best thing, as Bobbie suggests, is to download the owner's manual for whatever vehicle you're considering and read everything it says about towing. Many are quite informative and will clear up a lot of your concerns. A Google search on "20XX <Make> <Model> Owner's Manual" will usually pull up a link to a downloadable PDF file. This is one time the internet is truly helpful!
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Old 08-19-2016, 07:21 AM   #30
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Just to second the google search, tow ratings are easily found. Unfortunately, payloads are not so easy to find. The reason is they usually have the payloads listed for very basic models. But all the options most of us get come right out of the payload. So my truck if it were a stripped model, would have a payload rating of ~2,000 pounds. But as a Lariat model (next to the top), its only 1450 pounds. All the doodads and extras add up. My truck is a four door, seats five passengers. Imagine a family of five traveling in my truck. Lets say those passengers average 150 pounds each, thats 750 pounds. Then add 250 pounds for my bed camper top, thats 1000 pounds. That only leaves 450 for everything else: gear in the truck, hitch, tongue weight, etc. And in my case at least, the Casita has very little storage capacity, so there is always a fair amount of gear in the truck. Easy up canopy, folding chairs, grill, etc.

Towing most 13 footers is a much smaller number weight wise than the 17 footers. Of course, you give up space and features. My 17 foot Casita is on the porky side for a FG trailer.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:06 PM   #31
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Jill, At one time, we were strongly considering a 2016 Kia Sorento for our 17' EggCamper, but we've decided to squeeze a few more trips out of our 2002 Toyota Highlander for now. If the 2017 Kia is still on your radar screen, make sure you get a Class III 2" trailer hitch (I think the 2016 factory hitch was a Class II 1 1/4") - the more bolts holding it to the unibody frame at designated mounting locations, the better (I'm sure that will stimulate further comments). And as others have mentioned, you'll need to have a brake controller and 7-pin receptacle installed for the electric trailer brakes (unless your camper has "surge" brakes like the Lil' Snoozy). At the time we were seriously looking, our local Kia dealer was not willing to install a Class III hitch or brake controller, so we were going to have to take it to a trailer specialty shop to have that done (not that big of a deal). Anyway, just more stuff you need to be aware of, if you're not already, and to ask your local dealer about to be sure you get what you need/want for the size camper you plan to get. Dale
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