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Old 03-23-2013, 07:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jared J View Post
The escape doesn't look to promising with a 1,000 lb rating. They put it there for a reason, who knows why...
Exactly!

There is nothing inherently limiting about a hybrid system, but something in this particular model is apparently not up to handling sustained high loads. It could be cooling for one or more of the electric motor/generators or electronic controllers, for instance, but we don't know and thus don't even know what to watch for, let alone what could be improved to make this operation reliable.

It could even be that Ford just didn't think it was worthwhile to do testing under sustained load, and not knowing that it would be okay just set a low limit to be safe. Again, we just don't know.

I am always suspicious of someone else's "I did it and have no problems" report for two reasons:
  • it could be that problems are brewing and have just not killed the vehicle yet
  • that person's towing conditions may not be relevant to my towing conditions.

For examples of the latter effect, I note that
  • the famous/infamous Ontario Airstream dealer that hooks anything up to anything may tow these rigs many thousands of kilometres a year, but never goes anywhere but Indiana to southern Ontario... there are no mountains there, and
  • the sailboat that the Escape Hybrid owner is towing is as heavy as a loaded 16' travel trailer, but should have quite low air drag in comparison.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:17 PM   #22
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Could the issue be that, hybrids are engineered to achieve high mileage and that towing never entered the equation and never will?

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Old 03-23-2013, 07:24 PM   #23
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My understanding of proportional controllers (or so-called pendulum controllers, though I'd be surprised if any modern ones actually still used a pendulum) is that they apply power to your trailer brakes based on the tow vehicle deceleration, regardless of the source of that deceleration. If you hits the brakes, or down shift, or drag your feet Flintstones-style, doesn't matter -- your tow vehicle slows down so the controller senses the deceleration and thus sends power to your trailer brakes.
True... and some controllers do still use a pendulum, although it doesn't matter much.

Two details to note:
  • the electric controller only operates if enabled by the signal from the tug's stop lamp (brake light) circuit, so they won't go on unless the brake pedal is pushed, and
  • some controllers have a "boost" function which briefly applies power to the trailer brakes - not in any way proportioned to deceleration - each time the stop lamp signal appears.

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Originally Posted by dbailey View Post
If this is all there is, it means that on a down grade, if you hit the brakes to slow down the trailer brakes will come on. But if you ride the brakes down the hill (yeah, bad driver) maintaining a constant speed, the brake controller won't detect deceleration, so won't apply the trailer brakes.
Maybe. The trailer is facing downhill, which a pendulum-type controller will interpret as slight deceleration (imagine the pendulum hanging vertically but the vehicle is a bit nose-down); an all-electronic controller with two perpendicular accelerometer axes might be able to tell that it is tilted rather than decelerating.

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Now, I'm not sure if the brake controller *also* watches your tow vehicle brake lights and applies braking to the trailer every time you touch the brake pedal... If it does, then riding your tow vehicle brakes down a hill at constant speed will mean that your trailer brakes are also on...

Could any one clear up that point for me? Does a proportional brake controller watch the tow vehicle brake signal as well as watching deceleration?
Yes, but braking is only applied without detected deceleration as part of the short-term "boost" feature which I mentioned above; some don't have boost, those with it can turn it off, and with any deceleration-based controller continually holding the brake pedal on without detected deceleration does not keep the trailer brakes on.

There is another type of proportional controller, which responds in proportion to how hard the tug's brakes are applied, regardless of deceleration. The integrated controllers now common in full-sized "heavy duty" (GM and Dodge 2500/3500, Ford F-SuperDuty) pickups measure the hydraulic pressure in the truck's brake system, so if you hold the brakes on descending the grade the trailer brakes will be held on - unless the designers were very clever about watching the speed as well, and decided to take this into account. I don't know, and don't have a ready reference source for the behaviour of these systems.


Of course, none of this has anything to do specifically with hybrids...
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo View Post
Could the issue be that, hybrids are engineered to achieve high mileage and that towing never entered the equation and never will?
I agree that most hybrids are targeted at a market which will not tow, so it is not a significant factor in the vehicle design. A Prius is not intended to tow, but then neither is a non-hybrid Yaris or Corolla.

On the other hand, the GM light truck hybrids (with the Two-Mode Hybrid System) have the same towing capacity as the non-hybrid with the same engine (6100 pounds for the 1500 series); there are intended for light truck use, which is expected to include towing.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:34 PM   #25
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My wife has a 2010 Prius... I think it's grand that it has more legroom than a Crown Vic, Brian. I'm sure it's a wonderful taxi. I'm also certain it would be an incredibly inadequate tow vehicle for a 1 ton trailer. But of course, no one is considering a Prius as a tow vehicle.
Agreed. I was just commenting on Norm's reference to the NYC taxi experience which showed that hybrid vehicles - under conditions unrelated to towing - proved reliable.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:45 PM   #26
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Some of the most powerful tow vehicles are hybrids. They usually have names like "Union Pacific" or "Norfolk Southern" on them. Diesels powering electric motors. I'd like to see some diesel-electric cars here in the USA. VW is teasing us with talk of a diesel electric option on the CrossBlue SUV. I would love to see the Escape and C-Max uprated to tow my Scamp.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:11 PM   #27
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Thanks for the info on brake controllers, Brian.
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:07 AM   #28
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Hmmm.. interesting.
While hybrids seem to be capable of some towing, I would think it would always be with limits. From what I have learned about hybrids they are best as city cars. They thrive by delivering fuel economy and performance in stop and go traffic. City mileage in a hybrid is unbeatable. Highway fuel economy is really only marginally better. New hybrids are also a bit like new diesels. If they don't burn much fuel they burn money directly through financing, tax subsidies, and the cost of repairs and maintenance down the road. If I was towing with a hybrid I can imagine it might be fine for trips of a couple weeks per year or so. But full or part time RVers? I have my doubts. Look how many full timers use diesels.
Recently I read a review of Volkwagens hybrid Jetta. It was especially revealing because VW makes a gasoline, hybrid and diesel model of the Jetta. All three otherwise identical vehicles were tested and the numbers crunched. The winner was of course the Jetta TDI, followed by the hybrid and last of all the gasoline model. The hybrid came second because of its city driving performance. The diesel was not quite as good in city driving as the hybrid but on the highway it was clear that diesel was the winner. Towing requires high torque for sustained periods of time. Thats what a diesel does. A hybrid can only produce torque for short periods of time with any real efficiency. Maybe hybrid technology will get alot better in time. Maybe the price of it will continue to fall. Maybe hybrid towing pioneers will forge a path to a brave new world. I am content to wait and see.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:26 AM   #29
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Taxi Service

I was particularly interested in the use of Hybrids in Taxi serviced, One of the concerns is battery life, typically the batteries are warrantied for 100,000 miles. In taxi service there were zero battery pack failures.

Typically our goal with a vehicle is ten years of service, our Honda CRV tow vehicle just finished it's 9th year with almost 200,000 miles. Still towing well.

In addition the hybrids had much better service records than traditional gas powered taxis.

I know many people tow with diesels, though I doubt most of our trailers require a large diesel engine to tow successfully. I have considered a small diesel and would own one though the large fuel cost differential is a concern though I plan to take a close look at the VW.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:15 AM   #30
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I think part of the reason for most hybrids having a low tow rating is power output. Use the example of most compact pickups. The V6 model has a larger (sometimes a lot larger) tow rating than the 4cyl model. Of corse part of the tow rating has to do with the larger brakes and higher load capacity suspension.

However most hybrids also trade larger engine for smaller with electric boost. Problem when towing is when you run out of electric power you are stuck with the smaller engine. Second part of this equation is the engine is optimized for economy and is less powerful (Atkins cycle I believe most common).

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Old 03-24-2013, 08:36 AM   #31
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Now diesels are seemingly built for towing. Better torque curve and better efficiency under higher load. The current 2.0L TDI used in the VW Beetle, Jetta, Golf, and Passat is used in their Amarok pickup with a different turbo setup. The tow ratings for it are 6100 to 7000lbs. The listed engine output is not much higher but area under the curve is better suited to towing and hauling.

Now towing a much smaller load I think it is as reasonable to consider a TDI as a hybrid. I haven't looked at the current tow ratings but I believe mine is listed 1000lbs no brakes, 2000lbs with brakes. The newer cars are more powerful and heavier. That and the Germans tend to over build on safety and brakes.

And I get 28 to 32 MPG towing mostly like my CRV counter part does. Isn't that sort of the whole point of this discussion?

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:46 AM   #32
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Jason,
Actually lowest operating cost is the goal.

Diesels over the long haul may be the solution. The only thing the VW diesel has against it is VW's reliability, expensive service intervals and the high USA price of diesel, a 10-20% premium in price.

I haven't seen the hybrid's power curves yetbut I suspect they are pretty good.

As to high speed towing, I don't do it. In terms of high speed driving the hybrids are fine.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:21 PM   #33
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I think part of the reason for most hybrids having a low tow rating is power output. Use the example of most compact pickups. The V6 model has a larger (sometimes a lot larger) tow rating than the 4cyl model. Of corse part of the tow rating has to do with the larger brakes and higher load capacity suspension.
I don't think power has anything to do with the tow rating, at least for those manufacturers (everyone other than Toyota) who have so far refused to follow the SAE towing performance standard for ratings.

The larger engine has a higher tow rating because it is equipped to handle more sustained power output, with a larger radiator, more transmission cooling capacity, and so on. Typically the smaller engine will have more than enough power to tow effectively, but up a long mountain grade or at sustained high speed on a freeway, it will be running at greater power output than the design expects and will eventually be unreliable due to overheating of some component. In a hybrid vehicle intended for light-duty use, that could easily be a generator or motor in the hybrid transmission system.

For comparison, look at light and medium duty commercial trucks. Ford uses the same PowerStroke diesel in everything from an F-250 to an F-550 (and maybe beyond - I didn't look), and while the heavier trucks have much higher tow ratings, they have no more power. Look under the hood of an F-250 and an F-450, and you will see that the heavier truck has larger coolers - six of them, for everything including power steering fluid.

When GM was still building medium-duty trucks, I noticed that the same Vortec 8.1 L V8 was available in that same range as my Ford example; these were GM, so that meant from 2500 pickups to 5500 trucks. The heavier trucks had much higher towing capacity, and the peak power output of that same engine was actually lower in the heaviest trucks - the engine might be expected to run flat-out for sustained periods hauling all that truck and load, so it had to be kept down to a power output that it could reliably sustain.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:29 PM   #34
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I have a concern/question about braking with the hybrid- I understand how that works, but if you downshift instead of activating the car brakes, you don't activate the trailer brakes. Doesn't this lead to the potential for the trailer to push the car or for problem handling on downhills?

Otherwise I'm impressed by the mileage he gets. I wonder how the Highlander does? I didn't think the hybrid had the same 3500 lb limit, though. Unless he just means he figures it is okay to go with the V6 limit instead of the hybrid limit.
The non-hybrid Highlander has a 5000 lb tow rating with its 3.5L v6. The hybrid is rated to tow 3500, and its v6 is a lower output 3.3L.

As pointed out by others, just because someone benefits from regenerative braking on a downhill grade, that does not mean they are foregoing use of actual brakes when safety dictates. And as for trailer pushing, a person could use the brake controller to activate trailer brakes only for a time if desired... but in most instances, if one feels the need for braking, one will simply use the brake pedal and all the brakes will be applied.

I will be interested to see what the Ford engineer says about the Escape hybrid and towing. Norm, when will you get to talk to him?
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:36 PM   #35
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I wonder how many drivers, when faced with a situation where manually applying the brakes to the trailer is the best option, would have the presence of mind to do it.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:10 PM   #36
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I will be interested to see what the Ford engineer says about the Escape hybrid and towing.


To heck with the manufacturer's engineer- what do The Real Experts have to say about it?

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Old 03-24-2013, 03:14 PM   #37
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Mike, As soon as I get home I plan to contact him, hoping to get some info before we head off to Newfoundland. I also plan to test drive a CMax when I get home.

Glenn, The brake controller in the hybrid responds just as is does in a traditional tow vehicle. However I believe everyone should be prepared to manually activate their brakes.

As part of our start up procedure I manually activate my trailer brakes as we start out. First to be sure that the brakes are working and second , to make sure I know where the manual activation control is not that it moves but practice reduces anxiety in a panic.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:29 PM   #38
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I tow with one of the smaller tow vehicles and I never see my temperature climb. Of course we have a manual transmission.

As far as I can tell the Ford/Toyota CVT is basically a manual transmission. I don't believe there is a transmission cooler on their CVT. Someone let me know if it's possible to overheat the CVT.

Small motors can move big items, it's simply a question of gearing and desired speed. I find our little 2.4L engine fully capable of propelling my Scamp at adequate speed. Whether the combo of a 100 hp electric motor and a 2.0L atkinson engine is yet to be seen. The attitude that big engines are required to produce horsepower is really a thing of the pass. Today's small engines produce the power of yesterday's V8s and people towed in the good old days. Most amazing today's engines have superior life to yesterdays and can run all day at high speed.

My personal biggest fear was not the horsepower or torque available because they appear to exceed what I have. My concern was battery cycles measured in miles. The taxi test has relieved some of that.

The size and weight of the proposed vehicles, Escape Hybrid and CMax Hybrid are very similar to my Honda. There torque and horsepower are similar. Can they cut it towing my Scamp 16?

As to the SAE towing requirements, I question towing requirements that probably the majority of towing vehicles can not meet yet would be applied to RVers. Of course the majority of towing vehicles are semi's and I am forever passing them on steep grades though they fly by me on the way down.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:44 PM   #39
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Ford Hybrid Transmission info

Here's some info on the Ford Escape's Hybrid Transmission.

The gear selections are Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive and Low.

The Drive position is the normal forward position.

The Low position simply selects a different computer algorithm so that when you take your foot off the throttle, you get a deceleration that feels like a manual transmission. And on a grade, you don't coast as fast in L as you do in D with the brakes recharging the batteries and causing the vehicle to slow.

In Reverse, the vehicle only operates in electric mode.

Applying the brakes in any gear selection activates the trailer brakes.

I admit to being a beginner, just learning about Hybrids and certainly just want to know more.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:06 PM   #40
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As to the SAE towing requirements, I question towing requirements that probably the majority of towing vehicles can not meet yet would be applied to RVers. Of course the majority of towing vehicles are semi's and I am forever passing them on steep grades though they fly by me on the way down.
The recent SAE towing standard has nothing to do with semis; it is specifically for light-duty vehicles with towing capacity under at set limit (13,000 pounds as I recall). It is for RVers. I would hope that any vehicle that we might use would at least come close to passing this test standard with a trailer at the rated limit - Toyota doesn't seem to be having much of a problem with it.
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