Liability and overweight towing (split from Towing 13' Scamp...)

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

Not just small claims court in Alberta. They don't recommend going to the Court of Queens Bench, (federal) without a lawyer, but I have done it. Apparently I produce professional looking affidavits.
The entire provincial court system, in Alberta, can be done without a lawyer. Check out the link I posted.

Yes one can, but there are much higher court costs associated with going down that road vs small claims court or at least there are here in BC, but suspect as the Queens Bench is Federal its probable the same across the country.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Yes Small Claims court is in place to make it affordable to resolve issues without the need for a high priced lawyer to represent either party and can only be used to sue for money or the return of personal property valued up to $25,000.00

In the US due to having a right to trial by jury either party can bump the case out of small claims court into district court by simply stating they wish a jury trial on the matter. Common technique used by some of the larger property rental companies when renters try to take them to small claims court. Renter may have a case but issue may not be worth hiring an attorney or they can't afford one so they are forced to drop the case.

On the other hand people sometimes win in small claims court simply because the other party does not show up, they then get a judgment and have to try and collect on it.

Only court I want to be involved with is courtyard by merriot

[Carol H]

[QUOTE=RogerDat;453057

Only court I want to be involved with is courtyard by merriot [/QUOTE]

actually this is the only type of Courtyard I want to hang out in

[Ken C]

Even these forums remind me of that new study from Georgia Tech on Terms of Service agreements really are difficult to read. "Of the 30 sites surveyed, an average reading level of college sophomore was required for comprehension of the TOS. To put it another way, around 60 percent of working age adults in the US (25 - 64) don't understand what they're agreeing to"

[Jared J]

I'm not going to get into the legal side of this, or whether you should or shouldn't do it, but I think a big huge point has been missed by many people.

So what if the dealer says it's ok for you to tow something that exceeds limits? Unless you have a signed and notarized statement (that will NEVER happen), the first thing they're going to say when somebody asks "Did you tell Mr John Doe he can tow outside of the limits?" is going to be "who?".

Even if you do have the signed and notarized statement, the point will be quickly made that you knew it was outside of the limits in the manual.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

To quote my own post "Characteristics of an individual do not apply to an entire group." Your service manager competent or incompetent has no bearing on any other service manager.

Again the hypothetical - "How many have read the hitch and taken that as vehicle tow capacity?" As far as I know not one single poster has asked "My hitch says 6000 lbs. so can I really tow that with my ...."

To support your opinion that the owners manual is the only authority. It may certainly be considered a primary source. While certainly not the only source.

If nothing else one can do an awful lot to safely increase tow and hitch capacity. Short list - brake size increase, rear end gear change, rear springs, shocks or air bag systems, WD hitch.

If the my service manager, or a couple auto shop owners I know suggested one or more of these options would yield the required capacity I would believe them. If they said don't do it I would believe them too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For purposes of this discussion, one that is dealing with liability issues, and, as has been mentioned as being followed by some Canadian authorities, the manufacturers specifications are the upper limit. Yes, one can do things that may make it safer and easier towing etc., but the original number remains the governing number.

Anything beyond those specifications is fair game for hungry lawyers and, no doubt for you and me if we happen to be on the receiving end of someone who is exceeding them and causes harm/damage to us.

Although I knew otherwise, the dealer that sold me my Blazer, reading off of the sales sheet, pointed out that it "could tow up to 6000 lbs , it's right there on the factory hitch".

And my list of uninformed service writers and service managers from over the years can go on for pages. I only went to the mentioned dealer because I knew that the transmission required a special lubricant that others did not stock. Doing so had already proven that, after 150,000 miles, that the same transmission in my 2003 Sonoma was as quiet and shifted as it did when new.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

In the US due to having a right to trial by jury either party can bump the case out of small claims court into district court by simply stating they wish a jury trial on the matter. Common technique used by some of the larger property rental companies when renters try to take them to small claims court. Renter may have a case but issue may not be worth hiring an attorney or they can't afford one so they are forced to drop the case.

On the other hand people sometimes win in small claims court simply because the other party does not show up, they then get a judgment and have to try and collect on it.

Only court I want to be involved with is courtyard by merriot

Small Claims Court's rules and regulations vary by state.

In CA, when you use that court, you relinquish both trial by jury as well as right of appeal of verdict. It's a trade off to get direct access to the courts, at a low cost, and neither party is allowed to use an attorney in court.

I have used it several times, both to recover money as well as property.
I think that the limit in California Small Claims is currently $5000.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Jared J

....
So what if the dealer says it's ok for you to tow something that exceeds limits? Unless you have a signed and notarized statement (that will NEVER happen), the first thing they're going to say when somebody asks "Did you tell Mr John Doe he can tow outside of the limits?" is going to be "who?".
.....

your receipt from the dealer and copy of trailer weight information you provided the dealer would document this fairly well. "Joe who?" would not be an option for the dealer.

It's not the dealer telling you it's ok, it's the dealer actually installing the equipment. If given the weight of trailer to be towed and they install the optional equipment to tow that trailer they will have provided that equipment as fit for the use intended.

You know just on a whim I read the Ford 2005 towing documentation online. It lists weights with the word maximum all over the place, but never the word maximum safe. The only absolute I could find is not to exceed the GCWR with some less strong stuff on axle ratings. I'm going to do some math I think and find out if

curb weight + me - GCWR = tow rating
Will have to wait until I can get to the scales but I am curios if the numbers add up to the rating given.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Carol H

I forgot to ask Francesca what math you used to determine the above? I am puzzled by your statement:
"You exceeded the limits in both your cited cases by several hundred pounds."
Even though the actual loaded weights of my trailer were pointed out to you. When I say loaded I mean loaded - in one case the trailer was on an 8 week trip.

Just what limit do you believe I was over on? My dictionary suggest the world "several" means "more than two but fewer than many" So just what is "exceeding the limits" by at least 200lbs by your math?

A few important numbers one would need to to be aware of to make the calculation which you seem not to have are that the Subaru Outback from 2005 onwards have a total towing spec of 2700lbs or 3000lbs depending on the model. Secondly it has a tongue weight spec of 200lbs and the manual does state the tongue % can be as low as 8% with no mention of that only applying to boats. The GVWR is 4435lbs. Curb weight is 3330lbs.

As mention I know I took some risk on one of the weigh ins by running with a tongue weight of 240lbs which is 9.5% of the total trailer weight again within the % that Subaru suggests in their manual. So bottom line is the only thing I am guilty of and openly admit it in regards to not following the manufactures specs is having gone over the cars tongue weight spec by 40lbs.

I really don't understand why you're so adamant on this point- or so slow to grasp what is obvious to the most casual observer. Tow limits are governed by the weakest part of the system- in your case, hitch weight limit (no matter the brand). Subaru is very firm in that regards: 200 pounds total. Period. No exceptions. They even go so far as to repeat the stricture multiple times, here referring to instructions given beginning on page 8-16 at the specs for the 2010 models at this link.

As for your assertions that Subaru says 8% of trailer total tongue weight is A-O.K.- that's totally irrelevant since they're speaking strictly from the point of view of the tow vehicle. Trailer tongue weight for stability is determined not by the tug maker, but by the trailermaker. As I noted before, due to huge differences in design especially centers of gravity, boat trailers are often specified as low as five percent of total. E-Z loader specs.

Camp trailers are never spec'd that low- most mfr.s recommend between 10 and 15%.
One example: Escape Manual page 13;

Scamp specs are as follows, taken from this link :

. Approximately 10% of the total weight of the trailer should be on the hitch for correct trailing.

That specification combined with the 200 pound constraint imposed by the vehicle maker on hitch weight-regardless of make- imposes a 2,000 pound upper "limit" on the weight of Scamp you can tow. You report the following weights:

ITEM_LENGTH_MAKE_______MODEL________AXLE__TONGUE__ __TOTAL

33___16_____Scamp______Standard_____2280_____240__ ___25 20

37___16_____Scamp______SideBath_____2400_____200__ ___26 00

Those total weights call for a tongue weight of at least 250 pounds, 25% higher than allowed by your tugmaker. In the one case, you got it almost right for stability purposes but overloaded the hitch. In the other you went below safe stability numbers so as to relieve the hitch. Either way, you're 25% out-of-whack with SOME "manufacturer limit"., regardless of any perceived "compliance" with another.

Is that clearer?

Now I must toddle off and try to figure out why on earth I'm even bothering to explain all this since it's really completely beside the point of this thread.....

[RogerDat]

Francesca
I'm having a bit of trouble with this. If the manual is the authority on capacities how is it that "Subaru says 8% of trailer total tongue weight is A-O.K." something one can decide to ignore based on what one thinks their perspective is?

Subaru states "For vehicles with trailer brakes, the total tongue load exceeds 200 lbs. when calculated at 8% of the maximum total trailer weight" Which they state as 3000 lbs.

8% of those trailer weights in the real world is 201 lbs. 8% of the maximum is 240 lbs. So... if one were to actually follow the manufactures stated advice the "proper" tongue weight for those trailer weights cited would be the 201 lbs.

However if trailer actually handled better and was more stable at 240 lbs. than it handled at 201 I would go with the heavier weight that my own experience showed was better. Combined with a measure of the front wheel well with and without trailer to detect excessive lift on the front end. If excessive lift existed I would consider beefing up the rear suspension after getting a front axle weight. And confirming my rear axle weight was within limits.

Axle weight and GCWR are the key numbers in my opinion. Well that and how does it seem to work best. Of course that is just one old rednecks opinion and not legal in any court of law... unless you can buy an expert :-)

[Bob Miller]

Many of the Owners manuals I have seen specify maximum towing values as; "When properly equipped". I don't think that I have ever seen a dealer installed option mentioned that would increase that value.

And again, most manuals also include the warning that no one other than the manufacturer is authorized to modify any specifications as printed.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Those total weights call for a tongue weight of at least 250 pounds, 25% higher than allowed by your tugmaker. In the one case, you got it almost right for stability purposes but overloaded the hitch. In the other you went below safe stability numbers so as to relieve the hitch. Either way, you're 25% out-of-whack with SOME "manufacturer limit"., regardless of any perceived "compliance" with another.

Is that clearer?

Now I must toddle off and try to figure out why on earth I'm even bothering to explain all this since it's really completely beside the point of this thread.....

Not being adamant about anything. Simple asking that you explain statements that "you" made directly in regards to my trailer and tug set up, that although you think they are clear to the causal observer they are not clear to me or my calculator.

The reason you are having to explain it is simple because you incorrectly suggest first off that I had towed a trailer 400lbs over the vehicle manufactures total towing spec and then to follow that up with the suggestion I had exceed the limits by several hundred pounds on some undisclosed limit (which still remains undisclosed) at both weigh ins, again totally incorrect.

Simple fact is that that 25% over 200lbs does not add up to several hundred pounds nor does being 0.5% short of a 10% tongue weight which I normally towed at translate to several hundred pounds - actually that amounts to the equal weight of about one flush of the trailers toilet. Being 40 to 45lbs over on the tongue weight which I have no problem admitting to doing the majority of time and any time on the highway also does not translate to several hundred pounds. Simple as that!

Perhaps in the future if you want to use a trailer as an example it would probable be more appropriate to use your own trailer & tug as an example as you most probable have a far better handle in regards to actual weights and specs than you do on other peoples.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Carol H

.................snip..............
Simple fact is that that 25% over 200lbs does not add up to several hundred pounds nor does being 0.5% short of a 10% tongue weight which I normally towed at translate to several hundred pounds - actually that amounts to the equal weight of about one flush of the trailers toilet. Being 40 to 45lbs over on the tongue weight which I have no problem admitting to doing the majority of time and any time on the highway also does not translate to several hundred pounds. Simple as that!
..........snip..........

.

It's really basic math, Carol: According to the folks that made your trailer (whose opinion in this matter is the only one that counts) you need 10% of total trailer weight on the tongue for stability.

Your trailer weighs just about 2500 pounds, m/l, depending. 10% of that is 250 pounds. You can't put 250 pounds on the tongue without exceeding a very important cast-in-stone manufacturer limit for the hitch weight allowed on the tug. That means your Scamp is 500 pounds overweight according to manufacturer specifications for both tug and trailer.

And as far as the whole point of this thread is concerned:
Are you, then, in Mortal Danger of having your pants sued off, as some in this argument maintain?

I don't think so.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Many of the Owners manuals I have seen specify maximum towing values as; "When properly equipped". I don't think that I have ever seen a dealer installed option mentioned that would increase that value.

And again, most manuals also include the warning that no one other than the manufacturer is authorized to modify any specifications as printed.

Do you think "when properly equipped" might mean with a hitch rated to that capacity?

Do you have access to a scanner or camera so you could post this "warning that no one other than the manufacturer is authorized to modify any specifications as printed." you say is common in most manuals?

I ask because a search of the pdf version of my ford owners manual (most recent 5th printing) does not turn up the phrase "specifications as printed" or "as printed" or "modified" I'm not sure your correct in making this statement.

I also do not find the phrase "properly equipped" as far as that goes.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

It's really basic math, Carol: According to the folks that made your trailer (whose opinion in this matter is the only one that counts) you need 10% of total trailer weight on the tongue for stability.

Your trailer weighs just about 2500 pounds, m/l, depending. 10% of that is 250 pounds. You can't put 250 pounds on the tongue without exceeding a very important cast-in-stone manufacturer limit for the hitch weight allowed on the tug. That means your Scamp is 500 pounds overweight according to manufacturer specifications for both tug and trailer.

And as far as the whole point of this thread is concerned:
Are you, then, in Mortal Danger of having your pants sued off, as some in this argument maintain?

I don't think so.

Good Lord never give up! Once again an interesting twisting of facts.


Your very correct that Scamps towing guidelines suggest 10% of the total weight as a good number to start with to achieve a nice solid tow, which is exactly as I have indicated more than once now, why I routinely added the extra 40 to 50lbs to the tongue. ;-)

As far as an increase in the odds of hurting another party by going over the vehicle manufactures tongue weight rating by 40 to 50 lbs while staying under the total towing capacity and well under the GVWR goes I will let you do your creative math to do the calculation on that risk. I am sure you will find a way to do the math to come up with the answer to justify whatever answer you might be after.

In so far as this thread goes I will stick to my original position and that is a party running with a trailer over its total towing spec as well as loading it up with the kids, or grandkids and family dog or two and all the luggage that goes with those passengers are probable pushing the vehicle to its max if not over GVWR as a result, is IMO putting those they share the road with at risk and as such are putting themselves at a pretty high level of risk of loosing a lot more than what many here seem to believe they could loose in doing so.

As I said Francesca with all due respect it would be fair more appropriate to stick to using your own set up to justify what ever the point it is you are actually attempting to make. It might make for a far more interesting discussion & be more relevant to the topic of this thread.

[Glenn Baglo]

Pistols at twenty paces, I say.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Do you think "when properly equipped" might mean with a hitch rated to that capacity?

Do you have access to a scanner or camera so you could post this "warning that no one other than the manufacturer is authorized to modify any specifications as printed." you say is common in most manuals?

I ask because a search of the pdf version of my ford owners manual (most recent 5th printing) does not turn up the phrase "specifications as printed" or "as printed" or "modified" I'm not sure your correct in making this statement.

I also do not find the phrase "properly equipped" as far as that goes.

"Exceptions don't make the rule"

Disclaimers are pretty much boiler plate, manufacturers don't want dealers, or anyone else for that matter, increasing their liability level. Witness that Owners Manuals used to be 20-30 pages long and now most run into the 100's, with my 2003 Blazer Owners Manual hitting almost 400 pages. And that's NOT to make customers happier, it's to cover the mfg's derriere.

A maximum trailer weight chart on age 4-53 of my 2003 Blazer manual lists 10 different combinations of Blazer chassis, drive lines and trim options and shows maximum trailer weights from 2000 lbs to 5,700 lbs. The last sentence in the introductory paragraph sez: "The following chart shows much your trailer can weigh, based on you vehicle model and options." (italics mine).

If you look up Subaru I believe that I recently saw the "When Properly Equipped" disclaimer used on that site. But again, boiler plate..... To even suggest that the opposite is true, is beyond the pale of reason.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Do you think "when properly equipped" might mean with a hitch rated to that capacity?

As you know most/many of the vehicles have other requirements besides a correctly rated hitch in order to achieve their published tow specs. What "properly equipped" means to each manufacture and tug model will vary greatly.

Some of the manufactures may have a tow package that will include amongst other things a larger transmission cooler or they may state that the trailer being towed must have brakes if it weighs more than x so many pounds. Some may state that a WDH must be used on any trailer towed over x so many pounds others may state that a WDH should not be used. The towing capacities will also very depending on a specific transmission or engine size should it be the vehicle manufacture offers more than one type for the vehicle being discussed. One would have to read the manual for each specific vehicle and its specs and options to determine what "properly equipped" really means to each vehicle manufacture & the tug being considered.

I know that while shopping for my current tug it became very clear that while the manufacturer offered at least 3 different models of the same tug all with the same base total towing capacity (within the group that had the same engine size and differential) each of the models had a very different GVWR which could well result in someone hooking up a trailer that was within the total towing capacity & tongue weight rating for the tug but once they added a single passenger and a cap to the rear of the truck and nothing else, they could be over the total GVWR. The variance between models and years was as much as 500lbs. Which could mean the difference between bringing the family dogs with you on the trip or not I would suggest one has to read the manual and full specs on each vehicle to determine what "properly equipped" actually means to each vehicle manufacture.

The above is why it is IMO dangerous for people here who don't know the full specs & requirements on vehicles being asked about towing such and such a trailer to say "it should be fine" because my neighbour or bother in law pulls at trailer of that size with the same vehicle. Is it really the same vehicle? it may look the same on the outside but....

[Bob Miller]

Good points and well written Carol.

As I mentioned earlier, the towing limits for 2003 Blazers range from 2000 to 5700 lbs. Some one with the higher rated Blazer could easily tell a newbie, with a version of the lower listed Blazer, that "It's OK" to tow that 19' Bigfoot and they could be at least a ton overweight.....

Again, always start with "The Book"

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Some one with the higher rated Blazer could easily tell a newbie, with a version of the lower listed Blazer, that "It's OK" to tow that 19' Bigfoot and they could be at least a ton overweight.....

well it seems we have come around to what happened and the issues some here had with the original thread that started this one.... tow rating for the vehicle in question where very different in regards to what engine size the vehicle had.