Liability and overweight towing (split from Towing 13' Scamp...)

[RogerDat]

Almost make one want to take the discussion off into the weeds of ST vs Passenger tires.

Common sense mostly boils down to don't be foolish. If you don't know get advice, weigh the advice and it's source against your own experience and proceed with a little caution since you are just figuring out if a solution works.

I am sure that there have been cases where improper modifications have led to insurance or legal issues. But I find FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) not useful in assessing risk.

Risk is assessed on likelihood of event, how bad the event is likely to be, how bad it could be in a worse case. Mitigation is not driven by that last one but by the first two. The last is addressed but not driving mitigation strategy. Otherwise online sales and banking would not exist, worst case is catastrophic loss of data, which one cannot make impossible. Only reduce the likelihood that the worse case will happen.

I drive on bad winter roads, but slow down to reduce my chance of having an accident, lower speeds also reduce the likelihood that an accident will be "worse case".

[Bob Miller]

In as much as this discussion has deteriorated into name calling and attacks on the messengers, I will leave with the same suggestion I started this discussion with:

IF you want to tow in excess of the manufacturers stated towing limits, ask these three sources and, if they see no problems, go ahead.....

1. The vehicle manufacturer, especially if there is any remaining warranty

2. Your insurance company, concerning what may happen to your coverage should you be involved in an accident that could be laid back to the towing question.

3. Your attorney, just to be sure you aren't endangering your estate.

BTW: This is the very advise given to me by a practicing attorney who has retired from the California Bar after more than 30 years experience.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

BTW: This is the very advise given to me by a practicing attorney who has retired from the California Bar after more than 30 years experience.

If you'd consulted an attorney who's had a little more "practice", would you have given his actual name?

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

My final analysis of the data presented. Those fear mongers out there that tell you that, "If you over load your trailer, then for sure you are going to jail" are wrong.

The expectation of some stupidity is built into our system. Perfection is not required. We punish reckless disregard for the safety of others, not exceeding the published specs by a small percentage.

Not that this will change the fear mongers.

1)What level of "Stupidity" is expected and accepted ? 2) Please Define "Reckless Disregard" . To me there are far worse punishments than "Jail Time " ! . Living the rest of my life knowing that due to my poor or egotistical judgement someone was injured or died is worse . Jail time ends at some point in time, my conscious does not .

[Bob Miller]

I don't understand your question, but I wouldn't reveal his name anyway. He gave legal advice to ME, and not to the rest of the world.

Were I to cite his name it would be misquoted or used out of context across the internet within as little as hours.

But I am sure that there are plenty of lawyers in Washington State the could be consulted with the appropriate questions.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

1)What level of "Stupidity" is expected and accepted ? 2) Please Define "Reckless Disregard" . To me there are far worse punishments than "Jail Time " ! . Living the rest of my life knowing that due to my poor or egotistical judgement someone was injured or died is worse . Jail time ends at some point in time, my conscious does not .

Whoa there, podner- are you sure you understand the debate subject here? This isn't some big ol' Moral Issue- it's an issue of understanding what the real risks are that may be associated with towing beyond a given number.

No one's talking about deliberate negligence like failing to have proper brakes etc. We're only debating the truth/falsity of this ongoing assertion by some that towing weights above that specified by a carmaker automatically qualifies as "negligence" or worse and inevitably expose one to all sorts of consequences, yada yada yada.

This is just plain not true.

Would you call, say, Carol "conscienceless" simply because she towed four hundred pounds over her Subaru's "limit" until very recently? What about Norm, with his long long history of towing nearly a THOUSAND pounds beyond the number given for his Honda CRV?

Then of course there are small timers like me...my own combo has been known to edge over Kia's 2,000 pound "limit" by a few pounds now and then.

Are we all just Pure Evil, or do we get any points for very thoroughly undertanding, equipping, and operating our setups for maximum responsible towing????

[RogerDat]

No point in giving the attorney name, I'm not looking for an attorney and the one mentioned is retired. What is more "proving" an opinion is not really the point. Sharing an opinion is. Once shared so that others can consider it defending it and proving it are somewhat counter productive. Who gains from reading the debate? Who is going to change their opinion? Who "wins"?

I also think "fear monger" is a little strong. Some folks are more risk averse than others, simple as that. They feel due diligence involves getting the OK from multiple sources, all of whom will themselves tend to be risk averse.

Others are willing to weigh things out, consult with mechanics or those that have more experience doing a thing and make a decision.

I'm in the latter camp, Bob it seems is not. No reason he should expect me to do the consult with insurance company and lawyer when I add a battery holder and move my propane tank. No reason I should expect him to not consult with his list of consultants if he added a WD hitch to his set up.

Last but most important no reason anyone else should take our opinions (or anyone else's post) as proof or gospel on what one should or must do. All we can state with any authority is what we would do or have done. Why, and how it worked, then move on.

[Tom Trostel]

So here is my problem with obeying the manufacturers rules stated in the owner's manual. My tow vehicle, 2006 Toyota Sienna, meets all the criteria stated in the manual. However, on page 413 in a bright yellow box is this statement; "Do not exceed 72 km/hr (45 mph) or posted towing speed limit, whichever is lower. Because instability (swaying) of a towing vehicle-trailer combination usually increases as the speed increases, exceeding 72 km/hr (45 mph) may cause loss of control." Every time I tow I am breaking
Toyota's rules.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Whoa there, podner- are you sure you understand the debate subject here? This isn't some big ol' Moral Issue- it's an issue of understanding what the real risks are that may be associated with towing beyond a given number.


Would you call, say, Carol "conscienceless" simply because she towed four hundred pounds over her Subaru's "limit" until very recently? What about Norm, with his long long history of towing nearly a THOUSAND pounds beyond the number given for his Honda CRV?

Then of course there are small timers like me...my own combo has been known to edge over Kia's 2,000 pound "limit" by a few pounds now and then.

Actually Francesca I think you have your facts mixed up again.

Carol's has ***NEVER**** towed any trailer over the total vehicle tow rating set by the manufacturer! Never will!! Her trailer which is #33 & #37 on the Trailer Weights in the Real World weighed closer to 400lbs UNDER her Subaru's total towing capacity spec as set my the manufacture & with new vehicle closer to 4000lbs under the vehicles towing capacity spec.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

1)What level of "Stupidity" is expected and accepted ? 2) Please Define "Reckless Disregard" . To me there are far worse punishments than "Jail Time " ! . Living the rest of my life knowing that due to my poor or egotistical judgement someone was injured or died is worse . Jail time ends at some point in time, my conscious does not .

Steve, you are obviously asking rhetorical questions. Unless there is a scale of levels of stupidity, or reckless disregard, that I am not aware of.

I understand that we use a reasonable person test in our courts. This is of course very subjective. We in Canada are all required to have liability insurance on our cars. This is insurance for when we are at fault, (stupid). To suggest that if we make a mistake in loading our trailer, that would invalidate our "stupid" insurance is counter intuitive to me.

I would agree that going to jail is not the worst outcome of being responsible for killing someone. As a father of five, I am directly responsible for the well being of my children. I live in constant fear for their safety. I recognize that the world is full of dangers that I can't possibly be aware of, let alone do anything about. Every time we get behind the wheel, we take a risk. The most dangerous thing we do on a daily basis is get into our cars. Yet we choose to do it anyway. Is this reckless? Some might think so. Do you? There is no way to make life safe, only less dangerous. I choose to believe that my judgment is he best tool I have. It is not flawless, but I have come to trust it. Certainly much more then the perspective of those that may have a conflict of interest.

Where do we draw the line when it comes to safety? Should I wrap my kids in cotton and never let them out of my sight? That would not be very good for their development. We are left to use our judgment, as poor, egotistical or flawed as that is. I just have to live with the possibility that letting them go to that party might end their lives. I have to accept that responsibility.

I am sorry if the fact that I trust my own judgment more then a manufacture specification is offensive to you. But I suspect these specs are written from the perspective of marketing larger and more expensive vehicles. This may be just be a rationalization of mine, but as the great philosopher Popeye says "I am what am".

Do you think that the Smart car should be towing 500 lbs? The manufacture does. I am not so sure.

(steps off his soap box)

[Glenn Baglo]

You weren't supposed to find that box restricting towing to 45mph. Have the same advisory in RAV4 manual. Be interesting to see what would happen to that advisory if potential customers pointed it out and refused to buy the vehicle.

Anyway, you're not supposed to steer too much either.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Actually Francesca I think you have your facts mixed up again.

Carol's has ***NEVER**** towed any trailer over the capacity of the vehicle tow rating set by the manufacturer! Never will!! Her trailer which is #33 & #37 on the Trailer Weights in the Real World weighed closer to 400lbs UNDER her Subaru's total towing capacity spec as set my the manufacture & with new vehicle closer to 4000lbs under the vehicles towing capacity spec.

I think Francesca has mistaken your tongue weight for trailer weight. As I recall you said at one point you where a small amount over on that. Which you wisely (in my opinion) compensated for by keeping the contents of the car to a minimum in order to not exceed the total gross vehicle weight. Along with not overload your suspension.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Actually Francesca I think you have your facts mixed up again.

Carol's has ***NEVER**** towed any trailer over the capacity of the vehicle tow rating set by the manufacturer! Never will!! Her trailer which is #33 & #37 on the Trailer Weights in the Real World weighed closer to 400lbs UNDER her Subaru's total towing capacity spec as set my the manufacture & with new vehicle closer to 4000lbs under the vehicles towing capacity spec.

Are some "manufacturer limits" more important than others?

Lowest/weakest link in every chain governs the use. The limiting factor in your case, Carol, isn't "maximum total weight allowed", it's maximum hitch weight. Your Subies all had a 200 pound limit in that department. You might have been O.K. towing a boat at those upper weights- they can be safely towed/controlled with as little as 8% total weight on the tongue. Not so for travel trailers: For a travel trailer, a minimum of 10% of total trailer weight is required for stability purposes. Your actual limit IF you adhered to that well known principle and to the carmaker's recommendations is 2,000 pounds of trailer, allowing for the needed stabilizing 10% tongue weight of 200 pounds. You exceeded the limits in both your cited cases by several hundred pounds.

I'll further point out that at the very least, you were overloading the tug's rear axle, no doubt also exceeding its "mfr. stated limit" as noted on your door post. Good thing you own a pickup now...or you'd be just as Doomed To Be Sued as the rest of us!

[Carol H]

ROFL seriously I think one would calling your current twist just a bit like pulling straws. Yup I did for a time dare to add an extra - oh gosh wait for it - an extra 40lb on the tongue for SAFETY reasons and not load anything in the rear of the vehicle to compensate for it. And as you are aware because of that issue I have switched to a tow vehicle that is rated to take a tongue weight that my trailer is most stable towing at. But that its not what your point or comment was which in case you forget was:

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Would you call, say, Carol "conscienceless" simply because she towed four hundred pounds over her Subaru's "limit" until very recently?

Which is complete inaccurate & would suggest I was pulling a trailer that was almost a 1000lb more than it is! ROFL

[RogerDat]

We need a hand rattling a chain emoticon for just yanking your chain / just kidding.

I have heard the "boat towing" theory of low hitch weights in relation to tow capacity mentioned several times. I have my own equally valid theory, since both are just guesses.

My theory is that the manufacturer has to take into account that while towing you may well have passengers and/or cargo inside the vehicle. With no way for them to know how much weight that is going to be they make an assumption on that weight and allocate the remainder of the GVWR to the hitch.

E.G They assume 4 adults and 150 lbs. of cargo are inside the car and subtract that from the GVWR for hitch weight.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Carol H

.....

Which is complete inaccurate & would suggest I was pulling a trailer that was almost a 1000lb more than it is! ROFL

I TOLD YOU! A granite counter top and slate floor was a bad idea in a camper! Did you listen? But it looks sooo nice.

[Carol H]

Well ...... you know now that I have more towing capacity the trailer did go out to Escape very recently to have a little addition done to it, now that I am not having to weigh every single little item I put into it because I was pulling with a marginal tow vehicle!

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Well ...... you know now that I have more towing capacity the trailer did go out to Escape very recently to have a little addition done to it, now that I am not having to weigh every single little item I put into it because I was pulling with a marginal tow vehicle!

It is a lot of responsibility to tow a trailer in the first place. The further you move toward the limits the more one has to correctly accommodate and adjust through their own actions to meet that responsibility.

Not having to worry anymore about every little item in the load must be a relief. After all we don't tow a trailer so we can stress out more during vacation travel.

[VicCT]

I am a lawyer. I am not in private practice any longer, but I was when I started out. I never handled motor vehicle accidents, so take this for what it is worth. I am posting this NOT AS LEGAL ADVICE, but as information regarding how the system generally works, and why none of us is likely to have heard of someone being held liable for towing over the limit.

I have seen insurance companies deny coverage for lots of things that would otherwise seem like minor variances from the coverage requirements. Some companies are worse than others in this regard, actively looking for any reason to deny you coverage.

I could definitely see an insurance company denying coverage for someone towing over the limit, especially if it was egregiously over the limit. Whether they would get away with it if you took them to court (which you would have to do if they deny coverage, in order to collect from them) would be up to a judge or jury, in the highly unlikely event it got that far before settling. But you would need to hire a lawyer to fight for you, which would be expensive. And it would almost always end up settling before ever going to court or getting any publicity, which means there would be no decision to find on Lexis or in the news.

And similarly, you can be sued for knowingly or even negligently exceeding the tow limit and causing someone harm. No reason you couldn't be. Whether you would be found liable or not would be up to the judge or jury, again, in the unlikely event it got that far before settling. Again, you would have to hire an attorney to defend you - - $$$.

In most cases, all it takes to sue someone is the court filing fee and a complaint. Nothing has to be validated for the suit to be started. It could all be lies, or, giving the benefit of the doubt, conjecture, since plaintiff's don't generally have access to evidence unless they sue. But you still have to defend yourself until you get a decision.

The likelihood of any of this happening increases with the egregiousness of the actions. It is much more likely to happen if you are towing grossly over the rated capacity for your vehicle, because that is more obvious and easy to prove. If you are towing, say, 300 pounds over your rating, and that 300 pounds consists of camping gear, etc., how would they really prove this? As far as I know, there is no one at the scene of an accident, weighing everything. It doesn't mean someone wouldn't give it a shot, though. I have seen people sued for much, much less cause than towing over the limit.

This is all just conjecture, not by any means legal advice, and don't take it as such. There is a lot more I could say, but it wouldn't add much value to the discussion.

The long and the short of it is, people need to take responsibility for their decisions. If they vary from a specified rating for something, they should do it with eyes wide open. Of course you could be liable. And of course coverage could be denied. And you could have a hell of a time fighting over it, even if it was a marginal case. And we are all unlikely to ever hear about it, because, like most motor vehicle accidents, the lawyers would be the ones fighting it out, and then it would usually settle.

[Bob Miller]

Thank You for the post Vicki and, yes, I understand the disclaimer.....