Mahindra diesel pickup - Page 15 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 12-19-2012, 09:28 PM   #197
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Fuel costs

This morning when I fueled my vehicle ,gasoline was $3.09 / gal for 89 octane mid grade gasoline .Diesel was $ 4.38 /gal . The cost of diesel was 42% more than gasoline . My 2011 truck would have cost an additional $ 6000.00 if equipped with a diesel engine versus a gas engine . Based on the amount I drive per year , the cost of the diesel engine option , diesel fuel prices and how long I keep a vehicle ,I could never recover the costs .
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:40 AM   #198
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That's exceptionally unhelpful. What do you mean by "car friendly"? My car doesn't show affection for any kind of station - they all just need a readily accessible dispenser with a hose long enough to reach the filler opening, and a compatible nozzle.
LPG filling process on gas station in EU is similar to gas, push-in the LPG nozzle and its lever, push fill button, and after fill is automatically finished remove the nozzle. There is no screwing in, no screwdriver, no venting, no weighing or flow measurement indicating full.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:35 PM   #199
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LPG filling process on gas station in EU is similar to gas, push-in the LPG nozzle and its lever, push fill button, and after fill is automatically finished remove the nozzle.
Now that's more helpful. I did later find a website showing the bayonet-style LPG connection now found in Europe. A decade ago, they apparently had multiple connection types so the situation was worse than in Canada and the U.S.

Current North American hardware include a stop-fill device (like the OPD on a portable cylinder, but appropriate to shut off filling, not just as a safety device).

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There is no screwing in, no screwdriver, no venting, no weighing or flow measurement indicating full.
The stop-fill device should eliminate the need to vent through the 80% level bleed valve.

North American propane tanks which use a bleed valve for fill indication now (for the last few decades) normally have a small three-sided knob on the bleed valve, so no screwdriver is required. No weighing is involved for a mounted tank (obviously), and flow measurement should never be used as a fill indication.

The only real difference is the more convenient EU bayonet nozzle, versus the North American fast-fill's hand-turned screw collar - but that could be the key to allowing self-serve (except, of course, in the states of Washington and New Jersey )

I really don't think having an attendant screw on the fast-fill collar keeps LPG from being available to North Americans... but that's just my opinion.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:04 PM   #200
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Comparing volume usage LPG has about 10% higher consumption than gasoline.
Just as diesel has an advantage over gasoline (it contains more energy per unit volume), LPG has a disadvantage.
Fuel - Energy volumetric density
LPG propane - 25.3 (MJ/L)
LPG butane - 27.7 (MJ/L)
Gasoline - 34.2 (MJ/L)
Diesel - 37.3 (MJ/L)

In the same engine, adapted for different fuels, the LPG consumption will be higher. LPG is a mix of propane and butane; in Europe there is probably much higher butane content in LPG (which is why we just call it "propane") so volume consumed will be lower than with our LPG. If LPG allows higher compression ratio, higher efficiency can make up some of the difference.

Why does this matter? In considering fuel alternatives - including gasoline versus diesel - some physical reality helps to make an objective comparison.

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With newer LPG liquid injection system it is practically even.
Delivering fuel to the engine as a gas displaces air, reducing the mass of fuel-air mixture the engine can breathe, and thus reducing peak power, but not affecting efficiency. Injecting LPG as a liquid fixes this problem, so the peak power output can be similar to that with gasoline... but it doesn't change the fact that the amount of fuel required depends on the specific energy content of the fuel.

Natural gas has the same power-limiting issue, although with any fuel supercharging (including turbocharging) can make up for it.

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Most folks don't use full power so 10% difference in negligible.
In reality I agree, but in marketing a 10% power difference certainly does sway buyers. Discussions here in FiberglassRV confirm that this sort of rated power difference is considered relevant.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:23 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Just as diesel has an advantage over gasoline (it contains more energy per unit volume), LPG has a disadvantage.
Fuel - Energy volumetric density
LPG propane - 25.3 (MJ/L)
LPG butane - 27.7 (MJ/L)
Gasoline - 34.2 (MJ/L)
Diesel - 37.3 (MJ/L)

In the same engine, adapted for different fuels, the LPG consumption will be higher. LPG is a mix of propane and butane; in Europe there is probably much higher butane content in LPG (which is why we just call it "propane") so volume consumed will be lower than with our LPG. If LPG allows higher compression ratio, higher efficiency can make up some of the difference.

Why does this matter? In considering fuel alternatives - including gasoline versus diesel - some physical reality helps to make an objective comparison.


Delivering fuel to the engine as a gas displaces air, reducing the mass of fuel-air mixture the engine can breathe, and thus reducing peak power, but not affecting efficiency. Injecting LPG as a liquid fixes this problem, so the peak power output can be similar to that with gasoline... but it doesn't change the fact that the amount of fuel required depends on the specific energy content of the fuel.

Natural gas has the same power-limiting issue, although with any fuel supercharging (including turbocharging) can make up for it.


In reality I agree, but in marketing a 10% power difference certainly does sway buyers. Discussions here in FiberglassRV confirm that this sort of rated power difference is considered relevant.
Benefits | Liquid LPG injection
LPG-Liquid-Inject Ltd
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:41 PM   #202
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Fuel economy is an important factor, particularly for long distance/duration travelers with higher fuel prices. However any fuel savings can be quickly. Disappear with high repair or maintenance costs. In this mix is also rate of depreciation.

Our goal is 10 years of towing, (car cost $20,000), 200,000 miles, (fuel at $3.50 $35,000, maintenance (tires $3,000, oil $1000, repairs $2000) , fees and insurance ( $10,000) These are approximate cumualtive amounts for 10 years or about $0.30 a mile.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:27 PM   #203
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We appear to have two interesting topics here, 1) Mahindra Trucks/diesel and 2) alternate fuels. Maybe the moderators need to separate and unravel things. Just a thought, thanks. Raz
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:55 PM   #204
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Fuel economy is an important factor, particularly for long distance/duration travelers with higher fuel prices. However any fuel savings can be quickly. Disappear with high repair or maintenance costs. In this mix is also rate of depreciation.

Our goal is 10 years of towing, (car cost $20,000), 200,000 miles, (fuel at $3.50 $35,000, maintenance (tires $3,000, oil $1000, repairs $2000) , fees and insurance ( $10,000) These are approximate cumualtive amounts for 10 years or about $0.30 a mile.
You could be underestimating the cost of gas increases within the next 10 years. I would not be surprised if the cost of gas would hit $5/gal within the 5 years and $7.5 in the next 10 years.

Another factor my wife and I took for vehicle consideration was how many decisions of vehicles and RV vehicles we have left within out “driving a vehicle” life span. For moving around vehicles likely a couple of times but for RV this was and it will be our last decision. Buying a towing vehicle with a trailer was the most logical decision, but we opted for the gut feelings. Sprinter will require a lot of my work but we believe that it will give us more RV time than more cumbersome, at least for me, TV and TT.

But going back to the gas mileage; at our retirement age the question about mpg was important but as long we would hit 20mpg or above on RV trips we were OK. The minimum 20mpg was a magic number for my comfort zone of feeling good financially and environmentally.

Early next year we will be traveling for 2 months along the East Coast of Australia with the primary location in Brisbane. At $7/gal we will likely use an LPG or a diesel vehicle.

George.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:01 AM   #205
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George,

I really didn't start off planning to write about tow vehicle costs except to mention that repair and maintenance costs were important factors in choosing a tow vehicle.

What I ended up doing was writing about our cost of ownership over the 9 years of ownership of our tow vehicle. When we purchased it we planned to own it for 10 years. Obviously the fuel costs over that period did not average $3.50, four years ago gas was half today's price. I'm sure you are right about future prices of fuel.

We have averaged a little better than 22 mpg towing. We have considered going to diesel but though we would get improve mpgs it does not make up for the increased cost of diesel. I really don't understand the differential in the USA when one considers Canadian gas/diesel fuel prices.

It is obvious that our biggest cost is by far fuel. This will get more significant with increasing fuel prices and is presently damping RV travel, though probably not so much with fiberglass trailers. Last year we spent about $4,000 on gas for our travels, at your projected $7.50 that would be closer to $8,000 for gas. That amounts to about $1,000 a month, a level where long term RVing becomes less possible.

I have previously stated that we see fewer RVers on the road. If we were driving our motorhome last year, we would have spent at least a $1,000 a month at last year's fuel prices.

I suspect that possibly lighter trailers, smaller, more fuel efficient tow vehicles may be in our future...... or maybe fewer long distance trips.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:50 PM   #206
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The current prediction is that diesel will be will be 12% more expensive than regular in the US so with a reasonable 25-30% better fuel economy in 2013 your diesel fuel cost would be 13-18% lower than gas. Can the initial diesel engine cost by justified is based on miles traveled. A few years back I was buying Opel Astra and diesel was an addition of $1.2K which based on planned miles I could not justify.

With the current price difference of 30% between propane and regular you could be saving with liquid injection 30% on fuel. I am not aware of anyone selling street legal liquid or gaseous LPG conversion or OEM in US so it is moot point.

U.S. Weekly Heating Oil and Propane Prices (October - March)
U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

George.
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1-U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Mozilla Firefox 12212012 110145 AM.jpg   1-U.S. Weekly Heating Oil and Propane Prices (October - March) - Mozilla Firefox 12212012 105937.jpg  

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Old 12-21-2012, 02:10 PM   #207
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The present reality based on SC, WA, NH and FL prices is that the gas/ diesel difference is more like 20%. While in Canada it's less than 3%.

This kind of price differential in the USA makes it hard to justify a diesel.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:08 PM   #208
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The present reality based on SC, WA, NH and FL prices is that the gas/ diesel difference is more like 20%. While in Canada it's less than 3%.
I wouldn't count on that. Today, according to GasBuddy (which I have personally found to be reliable here and in British Columbia) regular gas in my area is $0.98/L and diesel is $1.12/L at major retailers. This varies regionally (due to provincial and even municipal taxes, and market forces) but the difference across Canada - according to Natural Resources Canada - is similar. The difference to premium gasoline is much smaller, so if that's your choice Norm's 3% is correct.

Also note in the NRC data diesel is less taxed than gasoline, so the price premium for diesel may get worse.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:40 PM   #209
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Fuel woldwide costs

Interesting statistics. US is 16th in the least expensive countries for gasoline and 36th for diesel according to this chart - World petrol prices, gas prices, diesel prices 2012| MyTravelCost.com

Norway has best herring, at least to my taste, and the most expensive gas. Even thou water is everywhere, there are not too many motorboats; at the most expensive gas - $9/gal it should not be a surprise.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:42 AM   #210
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The present reality based on SC, WA, NH and FL prices is that the gas/ diesel difference is more like 20%. While in Canada it's less than 3%.

This kind of price differential in the USA makes it hard to justify a diesel.

I think you're right. Diesel is currently selling for $4.10/gal in central VT. The off-road stuff I use in my tractor is about $.30 cheaper. The difference is of course the federal tax. It occurred to me that this is a sales tax of sorts as most diesel is purchased by commercial trucks which are transporting goods to market. Take away the tax (off-road diesel) and you get a price equal to the second use for the fuel, home heating oil. So the private diesel car/truck owner is competing with the home owner for the same product (no such competition with gasoline) as well as paying a tax that cannot be passed on to a customer. Added to these are the additional cost of meeting air quality standards. It will be hard for the miles per gallon benefit to out weigh these factors. Raz


p.s. Gas is currently $3.53 here
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