Mahindra diesel pickup

[mcbrew]

My last diesel car had EPA numbers of 35/44 MPG. I averaged about 48 MPG of biodiesel and 50 MPG on regular diesel. Driving carefully, I could get up to 54 MPG.

I would hope to get at least mid 20s in the Mahindra. But one of the big benefits of a small diesel is the torque and the drivability. I doubt you would feel a need to go much over 2,000 RPMs in a truck like that. Towing would be a breeze. No need to rev it way up like a 4 or 6 cylinder gasser.

[Donna D.]

We started talking about the Mahindra back in 2007 here on FiberglassRV. This is a four page thread. There's discussion about WHERE these vehicles are perhaps going to be served. Interesting discussion: http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ure-31708.html

[Lee Senn]

I, like many others on the forum, have been following the Mahindra for quite some time. The increased MPG over conventional gasoline engines (even if it is substantial) is almost totally offset by the differential in the cost between gas and Diesel (I'll leave the actual calculations to the math types). So what you end up with is a, perhaps, marginal lower cost of operation, and to obtain that gain you have to deal with a company whose track record is certainly dubious. Numerous delays in bringing the truck to market and currently involved in arbitration with their potential distributor, Global Vehicles. Seems to me the only real gain is the longer life of the diesel engine itself. From my perspective the extended life of the engine say 250,000 plus miles for the diesel compared to say 125,000 miles for the gasoline engine is not to enticing as I am usually moving on to the next pretty face in trucks long before 250,000 miles shows up on the odometer. Lee

[Gerda, H]

Well, and even with some gasoline engines you can expect 250000 plus miles... Think about those indestructible Toyota engines, and I am rooting here for my 2002 4Runner...

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Gerda, H

Well, and even with some gasoline engines you can expect 250000 plus miles... Think about those indestructible Toyota engines, and I am rooting here for my 2002 4Runner...

Agreed. Does anyone really expect a gasser to be worn out at 125,000 miles? I'd expect the diesel to last at least 400,000 miles. No doubt it will need some work along the way, but it should last that long.

Besides fuel economy, the other benefit to diesels if the drivability. Lot of low end torque keeps you at lower RPMs. Less of a need to downshift on hills or when towing.

[Andrew Gibbens]

To repeat what I recently wrote in another thread, the history of diesel engines in Britain is that initially everyone said the same as Lee - the purchase cost of the diesel engine is so much extra that I don't get the payback from the better fuel economy.

But now we've been buying diesels for a while, they have become so popular that the resale value of a used diesel is higher than for a similar gas/petrol model. And it gets a lot higher for bigger, thirstier vehicles.

A Chrysler Voyager counts as a big vehicle over here and three years ago the basic diesel model cost £1100 more than the basic gas/petrol model's £18,900 (yup, $30,000!). Today that diesel model will sell for £1900 more than the gas/petrol's £7800.

So buying the diesel engine would be good economics, even if it didn't save any fuel!

Nowadays it's hard to find a tow vehicle that isn't a diesel - they have the big(ger) torque of a big gas/petrol engine but are really economical when not towing - the dream combination.

But I wouldn't assume a diesel engine would last any longer than a gas/petrol one. These are usually modern high-power lightweight engines, often using the same block as the gas/petrol engine, not the low-power built-like-a-bunker engines you find in trucks.

[brian m.]

Full-size V8 gas powered trucks like Ford and Chevy already get around 20 mpg on the highway. You can easily get 200,000+ miles on them, they have a long track record, run on less expensive gas, and can EASILY tow any FGRV. Mahindra deisel trucks getting 30mpg would be great, but at only 20mpg highway, where's the benefit?

[Terry G]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

A Chrysler Voyager counts as a big vehicle over here and three years ago the basic diesel model cost £1100 more than the basic gas/petrol model's £18,900 (yup, $30,000!). Today that diesel model will sell for £1900 more than the gas/petrol's £7800.

So buying the diesel engine would be good economics, even if it didn't save any fuel!

Thanks for the information, Andrew. I'm curious to know the respective prices for gasoline and diesel in the UK. Currently here in the US, the price of diesel has gone considerably higher. The current average price for diesel for the Rocky Mountain states (where I live) is $3.46 while gasoline is only $2.99.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Current average UK prices are £1.29/litre for gas and £1.34/litre for diesel, so +4% for diesel.

If you want to sleep well tonight, do not read the rest of this paragraph: these prices equate to US$7.80 and US$8.10 per US gallon.

I don't understand the economics of fuel production - the relative level of gas and diesel prices varies a lot between different countries. I thought the 'fractions' of crude oil were fairly fixed and you got X gallons of gas out of a barrel of a particular crude oil. But as diesel consumption has gone up and gas/petrol consumtpion has gone down, the price ratio seems to have remained constant, or even closed slightly. Surely someone here knows about how refinining works?

[Borden]

"Rocky Mountain states (where I live) is $3.46 while gasoline is only $2.99"

In Canada we run about $4.80 / $4.00 reg gas US gallon just glad I do not have to pay prices in UK.

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

I don't understand the economics of fuel production - the relative level of gas and diesel prices varies a lot between different countries. I thought the 'fractions' of crude oil were fairly fixed and you got X gallons of gas out of a barrel of a particular crude oil. But as diesel consumption has gone up and gas/petrol consumtpion has gone down, the price ratio seems to have remained constant, or even closed slightly. Surely someone here knows about how refinining works?

It is not always about refining. My brother who lives there told me that in France the tax on diesel is considerably lower than the tax on gasoline because the strong truckers unions have kept the tax low. It is not always about supply and demand.

[Borden]

Gas is $4.60 US gal today and has been as hight as $4.80 (1L X 4 for \ US Gal)

[Terry G]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

I don't understand the economics of fuel production - the relative level of gas and diesel prices varies a lot between different countries. I thought the 'fractions' of crude oil were fairly fixed and you got X gallons of gas out of a barrel of a particular crude oil. But as diesel consumption has gone up and gas/petrol consumtpion has gone down, the price ratio seems to have remained constant, or even closed slightly. Surely someone here knows about how refinining works?

Well, for what it's worth, there's more energy in diesel fuel than in gasoline. (147k BTU vs 125k BTU per US gallon) BTU stands for British Thermal Units, which is probably something you guys invented but don't use anymore. So I am guessing that it takes more crude to make diesel. At one time, I remember reading an article that suggested selling fuel based on the amount of energy. This appears to have happened in the US but not the UK.

[Joe Z]

Back in the 60's diesel fuel was always much cheaper to purchase than gasoline ...... What Happened?
Joe

[GeorgeR]

I did a short study of the current diesel car/truck environment in the US, and it doesn’t look good. Using KBB and Edmunds, I priced 18 noncommercial vehicles (Audi, BMW, Chevy van, Chevy truck, Dodge truck, Ford truck, MB and VW) and compared gas versus diesel versions. The least expensive is VW Golf TDI at $18.8K for the gas version and $23.2K for the TDI. The absolute outliers were Chevy 3500 vans at $30.3K for cargo van gas and at $33.5K for passenger van gas and at a whopping $42.8K and $45.5 for diesel versions. That is about $12K or almost 40% extra for a diesel version, unless I missed something, but this price penalty is insane. The lowest penalty for the diesel is the MB E-class at $1.5K, which is very close to the EU diesel option prices.
For the following exercise I did not include the anomalies of the Chevy Vans. The average price for the 16 vehicles was $34K for gas and $40K for the diesel version. So, at what price of diesel fuel would this $6K diesel investment payoff in 3 or 5 years? With the following assumptions: 15K miles/year, 18 mpg for gas and 24 mpg (35% better) the price for gas/diesel fuel would have to be around $5.8/US gal for a 5 year payoff or $9.6/US gal for a 3 year payoff. With these numbers it shouldn’t be a big surprise why diesel cars are not popular in the US.
On the other hand, in 2008, I bought an Opel Astra with 1.4l gas engine for about $20K. The 1.7l diesel option for this car was about $1.2K. In Europe, since 2007/8 new cars are 50% diesels. I don’t believe that in the US we will ever see high volumes of diesel cars. Diesel fuel price manipulation and diesel option pricing strategy successfully kills this 30-40% fuel saving option. Granted that the resale of a diesel car is higher, it would not suffice to compensate $6K cash, which could bring $2K from just plain interest in 5 years so the resale benefit would have to compete against $8K.
We will all be driving Bob Lutz’s (the ex GM anti diesel personality) Chevy Volt at 215 mpg; at least this was the GM original advertising. I recommend watching “Fuel” by Joshua Tickell available on Netflix.
George.

[Greg H]

Originally Posted by Joe Z

Back in the 60's diesel fuel was always much cheaper to purchase than gasoline ...... What Happened?
Joe

What happened was they started putting diesel engines in cars to combat the gas shortage, remember that in the 70's ? Now the problem is the government demands cleaner burning diesel fuel which means more additives and refining. Caterpillar engine has stopped building heavy truck engines because they could not meet the 2010 pollution standards set by the government.

[Joe Z]

Greg...
Makes a lot of sense to me as i have no idea what goes into refining. I just look at it and know that our transportation system ie: trucks,trains etc run on diesel but our home heating oil also has risen at the same pace and didn't think that was under the same pollution standards as vehicles but i guess it is. My gut feeling which i can't prove is that someone that controls these prices knows that we need diesel and #2 oil to keep this country moving and is taking advantage of that.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Joe Z

Greg...
Makes a lot of sense to me as i have no idea what goes into refining. I just look at it and know that our transportation system ie: trucks,trains etc run on diesel but our home heating oil also has risen at the same pace and didn't think that was under the same pollution standards as vehicles but i guess it is. My gut feeling which i can't prove is that someone that controls these prices knows that we need diesel and #2 oil to keep this country moving and is taking advantage of that.

I know some states have created a different tax structure for diesel fuel since most voters don't use it. As the price increases the amount of tax increases. This is not automatically the case with gasoline in most states.

Norm

[SherryNPaul]

The federal tax in the US is about six cents higher for diesel than gas. States add their own. Locally, our LOFT (county tax on gas and diesel) is the same six cents for either by the gallon.
I don't know why the federal tax is higher for diesel.
Sherry

[SherryNPaul]

A side note: it may seem that we're digressing here from the topic of the Mahindra diesel, but not really.
I think many of us on this forum have a keen interest in a fuel-efficient, tough small tow vehicle. The US and Canadian versions of our small trucks have grown each year over the last decade (gasoline) to the point where the "small pickups" are very close to the size of our older Silverado.
I believe the truth is, since none of us in North America are slated to get the "global Ranger", nor the other brands' small pickups, that the car manufacturers do not believe that the investment in a small work/tow/pleasure diesel pickup (comparable to the European/Australian trucks) is worth it.
Sales of the gasoline Ranger have taken a nosedive, hence its demise....
Would I buy a small fuel-efficient diesel pickup (4x4) by a major maker with an extensive repair network? Yes, in a heartbeat. With a premium? Yes. How much?
Probably ten to twenty per cent, with an engine the Europeans and Aussies get that is proven to get much better mileage, and have a much longer life.
My family is tired of hearing me talk about the North American lack of clean diesel, fuel-efficient, North American made cars and trucks.... Hope you don't mind.
As far as the Mahindra, I was intrigued a year ago, but I personally think their tenuous dealer network will implode before they (finally) launch. If so, driving one outside the local area would be chancy, as a tow vehicle.

Sherry