Most Economical TV for 13 footer (Trillium) - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 10-26-2010, 06:38 AM   #29
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Another opinion, respectifully submitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbrew View Post
.... My little car gets 40 MPG pretty easily. That drops to 24-26 MPG with the Scamp in tow. I got about 25 MPG driving through the hills in south-eastern PA. Not the Rocky mountains, but still some pretty good hills. At no time was there any danger of losing control or not getting up a hill. I do want to point out that my Scion towing my Scamp and my family has the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing a 3,000 pound trailer.

Speaking of fuel economy: When towing, the numbers tend to be lower (and closer together), but they can be very different in the end. One vehicle might get 17 MPG and another gets 25 MPG. The difference in the cost of gas (let's say $2.80 a gallon) over the course of a 1,000 mile drive is over $52.71.

I am not against people using trucks... please don't take this as a personal attack of any kind. Many people feel the need to defend their choice of vehicle... please, don't feel the need to do that. There are reasons for some people to use a truck and reasons for other people to use a car.
Another opinion, respectifully submitted.

The thread author is asking for recomendations for the most economical "TOW" vehicle. I'm a firm believer that just because something can be done is not always and indication that it should be done. A travel trailer can be towed without it's own brakes, but it is not recommended.

Also, Have to agree with Bill and Julie's post, "The heavier the vehicle....the safer you are....... "

Generally speaking, a heavier tow vehicle will be less affected by trailer activities than a lighter vehicle. Therefore the less chance for things getting out of control. Also a longer wheel base is more effective on the tow vehicle.

I don't own a large Pickup or Large Suv at this time, so I got no dog in the fight. But an opion, yes! From many years of camping.

According to Edmunds the 6 cyl F150 is rated to tow 6100#
They don't mention any tow ratings for the Scion XD. The Power to weight is not the same for a Sion towing 1500# and a 6 cylinder F150 towing 3000#. Advantage goes to the F150.

However, just for comparison, for the RAV4 with a 2.5 liter engine, 179 HP and 172 ft Lbs Torque, recommended towing is 1500#. Seems their tow package includes aux tranny cooling. Maybe not! Toyota considers the power train, frame configuration, suspension, and brakes when coming up with their recommendations.

The Sion has an 1.8 liter engine rated at 128 hp and 125 ft lbs of torque. It also has a shorter wheel base. Doubtful that much weight is recommended to be pulled by that set up.

In days of yore Airstream advertised their trailer to be so well balanced and so light that they could be pulled with a bicycle on flat ground.
However they didn't mention getting in traffic under those conditions.

In summary, there are commute vehicles for super ecconomy and there are Tow vehicles that will tow real heavy weight but get lousy commute fuel mileage. Then there are vehicles that make a good compromise when comparing their configuration to the load to be towed. The tow vehicle should always be rated to pull at least the weight of the trailer with a 20+% margin to accomodate winds and hills. 50% is even better.

Just not a good idea to tow something that is over the recommended capacity of the TV.

Kip
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:28 PM   #30
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Name: Jesse
Trailer: 1984 Scamp 13'
Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kip in Ga. View Post
Another opinion, respectifully submitted.

The thread author is asking for recomendations for the most economical "TOW" vehicle. I'm a firm believer that just because something can be done is not always and indication that it should be done. A travel trailer can be towed without it's own brakes, but it is not recommended.

Also, Have to agree with Bill and Julie's post, "The heavier the vehicle....the safer you are....... "

Generally speaking, a heavier tow vehicle will be less affected by trailer activities than a lighter vehicle. Therefore the less chance for things getting out of control. Also a longer wheel base is more effective on the tow vehicle.

I don't own a large Pickup or Large Suv at this time, so I got no dog in the fight. But an opion, yes! From many years of camping.

According to Edmunds the 6 cyl F150 is rated to tow 6100#
They don't mention any tow ratings for the Scion XD. The Power to weight is not the same for a Sion towing 1500# and a 6 cylinder F150 towing 3000#. Advantage goes to the F150.

However, just for comparison, for the RAV4 with a 2.5 liter engine, 179 HP and 172 ft Lbs Torque, recommended towing is 1500#. Seems their tow package includes aux tranny cooling. Maybe not! Toyota considers the power train, frame configuration, suspension, and brakes when coming up with their recommendations.

The Sion has an 1.8 liter engine rated at 128 hp and 125 ft lbs of torque. It also has a shorter wheel base. Doubtful that much weight is recommended to be pulled by that set up.

In days of yore Airstream advertised their trailer to be so well balanced and so light that they could be pulled with a bicycle on flat ground.
However they didn't mention getting in traffic under those conditions.

In summary, there are commute vehicles for super ecconomy and there are Tow vehicles that will tow real heavy weight but get lousy commute fuel mileage. Then there are vehicles that make a good compromise when comparing their configuration to the load to be towed. The tow vehicle should always be rated to pull at least the weight of the trailer with a 20+% margin to accomodate winds and hills. 50% is even better.

Just not a good idea to tow something that is over the recommended capacity of the TV.

Kip
Actually, I did the math... and my Scion towing a 1,200 pound Scamp plus my family plus our camping gear does have the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing my family and my camping gear and a 3,000 pound trailer. That is a fact.

Toyota rates the Scion xD for a little over 1,600 pounds towing. That is with the 1.5 liter four cylinder engine. The US model gets a power upgrade to the 1.8 liter engine. However, Toyota of N. America does NOT carry over the tow ratings from Toyota Japan. They simply tell you to buy a truck. I trust the manufacturer more than the US importer.

My Scion does have a shorter wheelbase than a RAV4, but it has a longer wheelbase than a Jeep Wrangler. Also, the rear axle is very close to the hitch, which also makes a big difference in towing safety.

Towing a 1,200 pound (1,400 lb camp-ready) trailer with a car like mine is not unsafe. Yes, I could tow it with a Peterbilt, but that would be overkill in my opinion. My car is MADE to tow over 1,600 pounds. My hitch is made for an even higher rating. It performs flawlessly out on the road. I do not drive at unsafe speeds -- towing or not.

By the way, Toyota rates the RAV4 to tow up to 1,653 without brakes and 4,410 with brakes, depending on the engine option. Toyota of N. America dumbs that down quite a bit, as you mentioned.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:49 PM   #31
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Name: Jesse
Trailer: 1984 Scamp 13'
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My math:

F150 4x2 w/ 8 foot bed - curb weight 4,843, 248hp V8
Scion xD curb weight - 2,625, 128hp i4

Scion xD + 1,200 pounds Scamp + 600 pounds (family and gear) = 4,425 pounds
F150 + 3,000 pounds trailer + 600 pounds (family and gear) = 8,443

4,425 pounds/128 horsepower = 34.5 pounds per horsepower
8,443 pounds/248 horsepower = 34.0 pounds per horsepower

Yes, it is half a pound off... I rounded a bit. The F150 would actually have to be pulling a trailer that weighs 3,110 pounds to equal the power to weight ratio of the Scion pulling the Scamp.

I will say that the Scion is pulling about as much as it is designed to (well, within 200-some pounds of it), and the F150 can tow a lot more than 3,110 pounds. I agree that the F150 can tow more than my Scion. There is no argument there. But to say that the Scion xD, which comes from the factory with a 1,600+ pound tow rating should not tow a 1,200 pound trailer plus 200 pounds of gear simply does not make sense to me. Yes, I could tow it with a vehicle that is rated to tow four times the weight... but why on Earth would I do that? Seems pretty inefficient and excessive to me. I don't need the cargo room of a pickup truck, though many people find it useful. I could make the same argument that anyone towing a Scamp with an F150 should be using an F250. Or anyone with an F250 should have an F350. I could also make the argument that gasoline engines are no good for towing... everyone should have a diesel.

Unit body cars are great for towing within their limits. I have done so for my entire driving life. Many thousands of miles with many different trailers (including ones weighing more than 4,000 pounds). Never have I experienced any sway, loss of control, lack of braking power, or damage to the tow vehicle.

I understand that many people wish to tow with a truck or SUV, and that is fine. However, as long as you are towing within the limits that the manufacturer gives for a particular car or truck, it can be done safely and responsibly.
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Old 10-26-2010, 11:53 PM   #32
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As long as there is no issue towing over the published US limits for a given vehicle in the US. I would have thought that might come into play if something were to happen.

Edited to add: And I DO tow with a foreign car, but it is rated to tow well over the weight of my trailer (about 100% more). Here, in the US and in the US owner's manual.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:09 AM   #33
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Name: Kip
Trailer: 2003 Casita 17' SD Deluxe, Towed by '09 Honda Ridgeline.
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As I've said before I don't own a large pick up or large SUV. I do own a medium size. But for the sake of discussion let's consider large pickups compared to a Scion xD.

Staying with the Ford F150. While the small V8 has had 248 HP, more important for towing purposes it has 294 Ft Lbs of Torque.

For 2011, the base V8 has 360 hp and 380 ft lbs of torque. The smallest engine they now offer in the full size pickup is a 3.7 liter V6

With a 6 foot bed it weighs 4685 lbs

V6 engine = 302 HP at 6500 rpm
and 278 foot lbs torque at 4000 rpm

Maximum Payload: 1710 lbs. Passengers and cargo
Wheel Base: 125.9 in
Maximum Towing Capacity: 8300 lbs. (6100 lbs w/V6)
Transmission: 6 speed automatic

2011 Ford F-150 specs, auto safety at Edmunds

F-150 (2011)
4685 + 600 cargo and gear + 3000 trailer + 8285
8285 div by 302 HP = 27.43 lbs per HP
8285 div by 278 ft lbs torque = 29.8 lbs per ft lbs torque.
( Note: Last years V8 would be 33.4 lbs per HP. More importantly it figures to 28.2 lbs per ft Lbs of torque.)

2011 Scion xD:

Curb Weight: 2665 lbs.
Base Engine Size: 1.8 liters
Horsepower: 128 hp @ 6000RPM
Torque: 125 ft-lbs @4400 RPM
Transmission: 4 Speed automatic
Wheel Base: 96.9 in.
2011 Scion xD specs, auto safety at Edmunds

Scion 2665 + 600 family and gear + 1200 Scamp = 4465
4465 div by 128 hp = 34.9 lbs per hp.
4465 " " 125 lbs tq = 35.7 lbs per ft lbs tq.

Chevy's Smallest V8 from last year has 302 hp and 305 ft lbs of torque.
It is rated to tow 5900 LBS.

FWIW: Horse power is nice to talk about but the real work is done by torque. That is why a 300 HP road tractor can tow many thousand lbs of trailer and cargo. That diesel engine has globs of torque. A 300 HP gas engine would not do the same job. That is not to say that to tow an Egg we need a diesel or a road tractor. Not to say we even need a pickup truck or SUV. But we do need enough torque, enough tow vehicle weight, and enough wheel base, to do the job safely.

Also this forum is about towing Eggs. They will generally weigh 1200-2400 lbs plus gear and people.

Those of us towing in the USA need to adhere to the laws of this country.
I personally tend to error on the side of caution. There are plenty of vehicles out there with reccomended tow capacities to easily handle Egg campers. They can be purchased in foreign and domestic flavors.

This discussion could go on forever. But I will end my part with this:

"Mr. Jones here was towing a trailer that weighed 1200# and another 600 lbs of people and gear. In this country that is above the manufacturers recommended limits for that vehicle.......! Now according to Mr. Jones, his vehicle is rated to tow almost that much in Japan. But we are not in Japan, are we? You the jury must convict due to negligence on his part. "

Kip
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:26 AM   #34
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The numbers don't matter in a lawsuit. Our legal system is simply not that sensible. My retail store got sued for a pre-packaged item not having a certain warning label on it. I am NOT responsible for labeling a pre-packaged good. That is the responsibility of the manufacturer. For instance, if you buy a Coke and it makes you sick, the gas station that sold you the bottle of Coke is not responsible... coke is, because it pre-packaged. Anyway, I still ended up having to pay... And the product wasn't even responsible for the damage in the first place... And the insurance company who sued us also sued three other companies and won three of the cases, claiming that their products ALSO caused the same damage. This was a fire, by the way... And the product I sold was sugar. They also sued Clorox, saying that their cleaning wiped caused the fire. My point is that you can sue someone on ANY grounds, even if there are already rules protecting that person, or if the claims are scientifically impossible... And you can win.

I am no more worried about causing an accident while towing than I am about causing an accident when not towing. I can be sued either way. Even if it is NOT my fault, I may lose either way. That is the nature of our legal system.

By the way, the government does not say that I cannot tow with my car. Toyota says that they reserve them right tom deny warranty claims if towing causes damage to the vehicle. Towing laws vary from state to state, and many do not reference the capabilities of the tow vehicle at all.
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:32 AM   #35
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Trailer: 1984 Scamp 13'
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Kip, I completely understand about torque. My current car is my first car that was not diesel powered. I do miss the low end torque... My previous car put out about 200 pounds of torque at 1,900 RPM. However, it sounds like you are making the claim that my car simply cannot tow a Scamp. I invite you to come along on a ride. It accelerates fine, hold highway speeds on all but the steepest hills around here, and would easily tow at dangerous speeds. The engine runs at normal operating temperatures... It rarely even kicks the cooling fan on. Oil analysis shows less than normal wear on my engine, and that is at 10,000 mile oil change intervals (twice what Toyota commends). Tires run at appropriate temperatures. Braking is good. What more could I ask for?
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:43 AM   #36
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I feel foolishly compelled to at least peripherally enter the fray on this subject once again, not because of the particulars, but rather because of the ubiquitous proliferation of redundancy in general on the subject.[lol]
Therefore, it is not aimed at any particular person,or material provided by him.

There seems to be a lot of heat on this subject, but not a lot of light.
This is often the case when real experience and understanding are displaced by a remarkable ability to surf the internet.
Quoting non existent legal requirements or trying to intimidate with insubstantial spectres of hypothetical law suites does nothing more than ofuscate the issue.

Of course, a tow vehicle should be adequate for the task at hand, but HP and torque have little to do with safety and much more to do with how much of a hurry you happen to be in. Rated capacities include the strength of drive line components and their ability to withstand the stress of the work which they are required to perform, [gearing, clutch size, etc.]
Chassis design,brakes, suspension components,and towing equipment are the issues which most affect safety, and while most important, are the least and last items discussed,and for obvious reasons.
These require a knowledge of the individual application,pertinent modifications, and of course the "torque" of the nut behind the wheel.
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Old 10-27-2010, 03:25 PM   #37
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Trailer: 1984 Scamp 13'
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Stop making so much sense, Floyd! This discussion is supposed to be driven by emotions and internet innuendo.

I don't know if many of the original designers of 13' FGRVs are around these days... if not, they are rolling around in their graves... these things were designed to be towed by small cars.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:01 PM   #38
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Trailer: 2003 Casita 17' SD Deluxe, Towed by '09 Honda Ridgeline.
Georgia
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>"There seems to be a lot of heat on this subject, but not a lot of light.
This is often the case when real experience and understanding are displaced by a remarkable ability to surf the internet."


I don't know the experience of others.

Long before the internet existed, I towed campers from 17' to 30' in length and from 2500 lbs to 5200 lbs plus gear for near 20 years. Add to that the conversations with other campers, many of them full timers. The last 5 years almost every weekend. .
I've heard horror stories, and seen first hand what can happen when towing with an inadequate vehicle. In a nutshell the more experienced campers pretty much agreed that while it is possible to overkill, generally speaking it is hard to have too much tow vehicle. And easy to not have enough. Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done.

Rarely will we hear someone say they wanted to downsize their TV.

Our last dedicated tow vehicle was a 1978 Chevy 3/4 ton G20 Van with a 350 cubic inch V8. Found out fairly quick that although adequate for the rolling hills in our area, it struggled in the mountains pulling the 5200+ lb camper. So I modified it with proper gearing, proper cam, better heads, better carburation, and exhaust system. Beefed up the suspension, and installed a torque converter with the proper stall characteristics. Every item was done with torque and towing in mind, not speed. With that all done it was no longer causing traffic to stack up behind on one lane mountain roads and folks passing in dangerous conditions. This also helped fuel mileage by 2-3 mpg when towing.

Someone earlier mentioned that a vehicle built for towing was a good thing to have and safer. Generally speaking many pickup trucks may have torque converters with higher stall rates than cars. More robust suspension, better cooling, larger brakes etc., because they are designed to do heavier duty work.

"...Chassis design,brakes, suspension components,and towing equipment are the issues which most affect safety...". and "Rated capacities include the strength of drive line components and their ability to withstand the stress of the work which they are required to perform, [gearing, clutch size, etc."

Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

And when a newbie ask a question, we should answer it to the best of our ability.

Kip
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:44 PM   #39
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"Overkill" comes pretty easy when towing a 13ft Scamp, and it defeats the very purpose of their existence...
"Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done."

I probably wouldn't tow anything with an XD, but then I wouldn't own a trailer if I had to drive a G20 to tow it.... motels start looking good and competitive at that point.
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:32 PM   #40
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Name: Kip
Trailer: 2003 Casita 17' SD Deluxe, Towed by '09 Honda Ridgeline.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbrew View Post
Kip, I completely understand about torque. My current car is my first car that was not diesel powered. I do miss the low end torque... My previous car put out about 200 pounds of torque at 1,900 RPM. However, it sounds like you are making the claim that my car simply cannot tow a Scamp. I invite you to come along on a ride.
Jesse,

I don't recall saying that. Which post is it in?

Mount a 14 inch tire under the front and it can be pulled on level ground with a bicycle or golf car.

You brought up the comparison to a F150 V8.

"In theory, yes... but many large trucks and SUVs are inherently unsafe."

"I do want to point out that my Scion towing my Scamp and my family has the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing a 3,000 pound trailer."

"Actually, I did the math... and my Scion towing a 1,200 pound Scamp plus my family plus our camping gear does have the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing my family and my camping gear and a 3,000 pound trailer. That is a fact."

I did the math also and posted links as to where the numbers came from.
You are welcome to recheck my numbers and submit any errors you may find. But I really don't know how an F150 and a 3000 LB trailer has anything to do with this thread.

In the scheme of things, what either of us may feel strongly about doesn't really matter. We should state our opinions and respectfully aknowledge other's rights to do the same.

You apparently choose to ride the edge!

"I will say that the Scion is pulling about as much as it is designed to (well, within 200-some pounds of it)"

And that is what you should do.

I prefer to have a TV with at least 30% reserve. If I'm towing 2800 lb, I want the TV to have a rating of at least 3650 lb. And that is what I should do. My Honda has a tow rating of 5000 lbs. That should be a nice reserve for a 16' EGG.

Kip
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:42 PM   #41
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Name: Kip
Trailer: 2003 Casita 17' SD Deluxe, Towed by '09 Honda Ridgeline.
Georgia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd View Post
"Overkill" comes pretty easy when towing a 13ft Scamp, and it defeats the very purpose of their existence...
"Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done."

I probably wouldn't tow anything with an XD, but then I wouldn't own a trailer if I had to drive a G20 to tow it.... motels start looking good and competitive at that point.
Thank you for sharing your opinion!

I don't own the trailer any more but still have the G20. Camped out of it several times recently. Just need a bit more room.

Motels have never looked competitive to me. I don't care to sleep on a bed where the only thing seperating me from whatever has gone on there before, is a thin sheet.

What do you tow your camper with?

Kip
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:16 PM   #42
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Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kip in Ga. View Post
Thank you for sharing your opinion!

I don't own the trailer any more but still have the G20. Camped out of it several times recently. Just need a bit more room.

Motels have never looked competitive to me. I don't care to sleep on a bed where the only thing seperating me from whatever has gone on there before, is a thin sheet.

What do you tow your camper with?

Kip
I tow my Scamp 13 with the truck pictured in my avatar, a 2001 Ford Ranger 4.0L, 5spd manual, 3:55LS regular cab short box, a fun and versatile ride.
Also with a 2008 Ford Escape 2.3L 5spd manual.
I have not been a fan of fullsized vehicles, with rare exceptions, so my point about the G20 was not a specific slur.
I agree with your assessment of motels, [so icky I can hardly sleep]
When we must, we choose Holiday Inn Express, they are as clean as you can expect, but the tax alone is usually higher than a night in my comfy little home on wheels.
My granddaughters and their parents went to six flags recently and the so-called "clean" motel room triggered my granddaughter's pet allergies and nearly ruined their trip. They got a "no smoking" room, but they didn't list a "no pets" room. The motel's solution was to offer free antihistimines[lol]

I am So glad to have our 13... "Eggy-Sue" [the pull-it surprize] .
If it were not for our Scamp, we would travel a lot less and have to spend a lot more.

We use to have a 124" WB 4.9L 4spd OD manual Econoline which was modified for camping, we loved it, but that was "A long time ago in an "Econoline" far, far away...."
Regards; Floyd

{Thank's Brian}
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