Most Economical TV for 13 footer (Trillium)

[Kip in Ga.]

Clarification...
...Concerning auto transmision cooling.

(Most on this forum already understand all this, but some may not.)

Most automatic's fluids flow through passages in the radiator for cooling purposes. When the vehicle is worked hard, the engine and tranny tend to produce more heat.

Generally, auto trannys have radiators large enough to cool both the engine and tranny if the weight of vehicle and/or the load it deals with are kept at or below specified limits.

Example: An Owners Manual may state the vehicle can carry a certain amount of weight. (Let's say 600#). It may also say the vehicle can tow 1500#. The 600# references safe limits for the suspension, tires, brakes, etc. of the vehicle. The 1500# indicates how much weight the frame, suspension, cooling, brakes, rear tires, and so forth can safely handle.

NOTE: Something to watch for is a disclamer stating that the tow weight is assuming there are no more than the driver, or maybe the driver and one passenger. And any additional weight should be subtracted from the weight of the trailer. Seems like one of our recent vehicle's owners manuals said that.

A vehicle we recently traded was good to tow 1000# "as is". Anything over 1000# required brakes on the trailer and a tow package on the vehicle. The tow package consisted of wiring, hitch receiver, and auxiliary cooling for the Tranny and the Power Steering. Then it was good to tow 4500# or so. Depending on the weight inside the vehicle's cabin.

Auxiliary transmission cooling is usually, but not always, an additional smallish radiator for the tranny fluids to flow through. It can be seen in front of the radiator. Some vehicles already have the 2nd radiator and their tow package is simply a hitch and wiring. Some vehicles have an oversize radiator as part of their tow package from the factory.

Obviously a full size half ton Pick Up or SUV V8, that is not loaded to it's limits, can likely tow a 1000# trailer with ease and without auxiliary cooling. But it is good to check with the mfg to be sure. On the other hand that same vehicle towing a 5000# trailer would likely require some help with the cooling. A 3500 series Dually with diesel engine is probably already set up for heavy loads and heavy trailers.

Because we are dealing with light weight trailers and, often, light duty TVs, it be a good idea to know for sure if auxiliary cooling is required.

A happy auto transmission's fluid will be pink in color. If it is brownish, it is either over due for changing from normal wear, or it is being over heated from lack of proper cooling.

Kip

[Cyndi B.]

I have brakes on the trailer, the truck just can't communicate with them yet.

[Orcus79]

May as well as my opinion to the fray.

Trailer brakes are a very good idea, make a world of differance in stopping and controle.

Aux cooling for auto trans equiped vehicles, always a good idea no matter how heavy the trailer is, any added load such as on inclines and winds can heat up an auto tranny to dangerous levels in no time.

As for tow vehicles, my opinion is one of get one that was built for the purpose. So most mid sized to small SUVs would be fine, I take issue with FWD vehicles towing due to the weight load in adding to the already stressed front tires.

AWD vehicles are fine, you just lose towing capacity and some milage because of the added weight of the AWD systems. Same goes for 4wd vs 2wd as well.

If you are doing short jaunts rouns alberta and into Sask, something with a 4cylender and properly equiped will be fine, though anything more and if you want to do longer trips look at something with a V6 or larger.

Also some what possible over kill here but, if you can't put a class 3 receiver hitch on it, it was never built to tow a trailer. Always be sure to read the door sticker for approved legal ratings.

[Tezha]

Originally Posted by Cyndi B.

I have brakes on the trailer, the truck just can't communicate with them yet.

Same here, but next year maybe!

[BillandJulie]

Originally Posted by Carmella in Canada

I am planning on tripping long term once I get the hang of things. I am looking at buying a TV for my Trillium 1300 and want the most efficient on gas mileage. It will be just me so there is no need for considering hauling kids or anything unessential around. I am a minimalist. Basically I want the least amount of car/truck possible to do the job safely. I have been scanning the posts and see alot of people using smallish SUVs but I am not sure about the fuel economy with these. I suppose I should mention that my Trill doesn't have brakes. I don't really plan to get them as I am a very cautious driver. I am not very mechanically inclined so I will be asking alot of advice over the next while so I want to thank you all in advance.

The heavier the vehicle....the safer you are.......

[Kip in Ga.]

We visited an "Egg" rally this past Saturday.

There were 20+ Fiberglass campers there. It seemed that many or most of the folks were more than casual campers.

Didn't pay as much attention to the tow vehicles as we did the trailers themselves. But thinking back, there were a lot of full size Pick up trucks and SUVs sitting in front of the Eggs. I would bet that most of those were equipped with V8 engines.

The folks we talked to about their TVs indicated their full size vehicles are getting about the same mileage when towing as the smaller less powerful vehicles. One person was towing with a mini Van (FWD) and were thinking about getting a larger TV. Seems that 15-17 MPG towing is a fairly common number for Egg towing. Obviously on flat ground, and good weather, a fairly light weight trailer can be towed more ecconomically with a less powerful engine. So someone towing exclusively in Florida or the mid west flat states can do Okay-to-well with a 4 cylinder and small camper. But get in the mountains or even hilly country and the smaller engines will stress more. Under certain conditions they can become down right dangerous.

As stated in another post, many of the camper's published weights are for the basic models. When AC, awnings, plumbing for bathrooms, propane tanks, spare tires, etc., are added, the weight can go up significantly.
One person we talked with said his 17 ft Egg weighs in at 2800+ pounds. Ready to camp. It is advertised at something like 2100-2200+ pounds.

From our camping years ago with full size units and full size (RWD) TVs, we learned that limited slip axels are a welcome item. 4wd even better.
Four wheel drive (4WD) and AWD can cost 1-4 mpg depending on the type of drive system and driving habits and terrain. But it sure is nice if and when it is needed.

Probably a good rule of thumb would be that for casual camping close to home, and only one vehicle, consider something adequate that will get good mileage for everyday use. For lots of camping where many types of terrain may be encountered, go with more power and a larger TV.

Just another opinion!

Kip

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by BillandJulie

The heavier the vehicle....the safer you are.......

In theory, yes... but many large trucks and SUVs are inherently unsafe. This is getting better now that electronic stability control has been mandated. However, I remember reading a very interesting study of ladder frame vs. unibody construction, and they showed that the driver of a Ford minivan running head on into a Ford large SUV (Expedition?) had 50 times the survival rate of the driver of the SUV. That was survival, let alone injuries.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Kip in Ga.

The folks we talked to about their TVs indicated their full size vehicles are getting about the same mileage when towing as the smaller less powerful vehicles. One person was towing with a mini Van (FWD) and were thinking about getting a larger TV. Seems that 15-17 MPG towing is a fairly common number for Egg towing.

Kip

This is true of many vehicles... and one of the reasons I could not find a small SUV that fit my needs -- most of them barely get more MPG than the larger SUVs. My little car gets 40 MPG pretty easily. That drops to 24-26 MPG with the Scamp in tow. I got about 25 MPG driving through the hills in south-eastern PA. Not the Rocky mountains, but still some pretty good hills. At no time was there any danger of losing control or not getting up a hill. I do want to point out that my Scion towing my Scamp and my family has the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing a 3,000 pound trailer.

Speaking of fuel economy: When towing, the numbers tend to be lower (and closer together), but they can be very different in the end. One vehicle might get 17 MPG and another gets 25 MPG. The difference in the cost of gas (let's say $2.80 a gallon) over the course of a 1,000 mile drive is over $52.71.

I am not against people using trucks... please don't take this as a personal attack of any kind. Many people feel the need to defend their choice of vehicle... please, don't feel the need to do that. There are reasons for some people to use a truck and reasons for other people to use a car.

[Kip in Ga.]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

.... My little car gets 40 MPG pretty easily. That drops to 24-26 MPG with the Scamp in tow. I got about 25 MPG driving through the hills in south-eastern PA. Not the Rocky mountains, but still some pretty good hills. At no time was there any danger of losing control or not getting up a hill. I do want to point out that my Scion towing my Scamp and my family has the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing a 3,000 pound trailer.

Speaking of fuel economy: When towing, the numbers tend to be lower (and closer together), but they can be very different in the end. One vehicle might get 17 MPG and another gets 25 MPG. The difference in the cost of gas (let's say $2.80 a gallon) over the course of a 1,000 mile drive is over $52.71.

I am not against people using trucks... please don't take this as a personal attack of any kind. Many people feel the need to defend their choice of vehicle... please, don't feel the need to do that. There are reasons for some people to use a truck and reasons for other people to use a car.

Another opinion, respectifully submitted.

The thread author is asking for recomendations for the most economical "TOW" vehicle. I'm a firm believer that just because something can be done is not always and indication that it should be done. A travel trailer can be towed without it's own brakes, but it is not recommended.

Also, Have to agree with Bill and Julie's post, "The heavier the vehicle....the safer you are....... "

Generally speaking, a heavier tow vehicle will be less affected by trailer activities than a lighter vehicle. Therefore the less chance for things getting out of control. Also a longer wheel base is more effective on the tow vehicle.

I don't own a large Pickup or Large Suv at this time, so I got no dog in the fight. But an opion, yes! From many years of camping.

According to Edmunds the 6 cyl F150 is rated to tow 6100#
They don't mention any tow ratings for the Scion XD. The Power to weight is not the same for a Sion towing 1500# and a 6 cylinder F150 towing 3000#. Advantage goes to the F150.

However, just for comparison, for the RAV4 with a 2.5 liter engine, 179 HP and 172 ft Lbs Torque, recommended towing is 1500#. Seems their tow package includes aux tranny cooling. Maybe not! Toyota considers the power train, frame configuration, suspension, and brakes when coming up with their recommendations.

The Sion has an 1.8 liter engine rated at 128 hp and 125 ft lbs of torque. It also has a shorter wheel base. Doubtful that much weight is recommended to be pulled by that set up.

In days of yore Airstream advertised their trailer to be so well balanced and so light that they could be pulled with a bicycle on flat ground.
However they didn't mention getting in traffic under those conditions.

In summary, there are commute vehicles for super ecconomy and there are Tow vehicles that will tow real heavy weight but get lousy commute fuel mileage. Then there are vehicles that make a good compromise when comparing their configuration to the load to be towed. The tow vehicle should always be rated to pull at least the weight of the trailer with a 20+% margin to accomodate winds and hills. 50% is even better.

Just not a good idea to tow something that is over the recommended capacity of the TV.

Kip

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Kip in Ga.

Another opinion, respectifully submitted.

The thread author is asking for recomendations for the most economical "TOW" vehicle. I'm a firm believer that just because something can be done is not always and indication that it should be done. A travel trailer can be towed without it's own brakes, but it is not recommended.

Also, Have to agree with Bill and Julie's post, "The heavier the vehicle....the safer you are....... "

Generally speaking, a heavier tow vehicle will be less affected by trailer activities than a lighter vehicle. Therefore the less chance for things getting out of control. Also a longer wheel base is more effective on the tow vehicle.

I don't own a large Pickup or Large Suv at this time, so I got no dog in the fight. But an opion, yes! From many years of camping.

According to Edmunds the 6 cyl F150 is rated to tow 6100#
They don't mention any tow ratings for the Scion XD. The Power to weight is not the same for a Sion towing 1500# and a 6 cylinder F150 towing 3000#. Advantage goes to the F150.

However, just for comparison, for the RAV4 with a 2.5 liter engine, 179 HP and 172 ft Lbs Torque, recommended towing is 1500#. Seems their tow package includes aux tranny cooling. Maybe not! Toyota considers the power train, frame configuration, suspension, and brakes when coming up with their recommendations.

The Sion has an 1.8 liter engine rated at 128 hp and 125 ft lbs of torque. It also has a shorter wheel base. Doubtful that much weight is recommended to be pulled by that set up.

In days of yore Airstream advertised their trailer to be so well balanced and so light that they could be pulled with a bicycle on flat ground.
However they didn't mention getting in traffic under those conditions.

In summary, there are commute vehicles for super ecconomy and there are Tow vehicles that will tow real heavy weight but get lousy commute fuel mileage. Then there are vehicles that make a good compromise when comparing their configuration to the load to be towed. The tow vehicle should always be rated to pull at least the weight of the trailer with a 20+% margin to accomodate winds and hills. 50% is even better.

Just not a good idea to tow something that is over the recommended capacity of the TV.

Kip

Actually, I did the math... and my Scion towing a 1,200 pound Scamp plus my family plus our camping gear does have the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing my family and my camping gear and a 3,000 pound trailer. That is a fact.

Toyota rates the Scion xD for a little over 1,600 pounds towing. That is with the 1.5 liter four cylinder engine. The US model gets a power upgrade to the 1.8 liter engine. However, Toyota of N. America does NOT carry over the tow ratings from Toyota Japan. They simply tell you to buy a truck. I trust the manufacturer more than the US importer.

My Scion does have a shorter wheelbase than a RAV4, but it has a longer wheelbase than a Jeep Wrangler. Also, the rear axle is very close to the hitch, which also makes a big difference in towing safety.

Towing a 1,200 pound (1,400 lb camp-ready) trailer with a car like mine is not unsafe. Yes, I could tow it with a Peterbilt, but that would be overkill in my opinion. My car is MADE to tow over 1,600 pounds. My hitch is made for an even higher rating. It performs flawlessly out on the road. I do not drive at unsafe speeds -- towing or not.

By the way, Toyota rates the RAV4 to tow up to 1,653 without brakes and 4,410 with brakes, depending on the engine option. Toyota of N. America dumbs that down quite a bit, as you mentioned.

[mcbrew]

My math:

F150 4x2 w/ 8 foot bed - curb weight 4,843, 248hp V8
Scion xD curb weight - 2,625, 128hp i4

Scion xD + 1,200 pounds Scamp + 600 pounds (family and gear) = 4,425 pounds
F150 + 3,000 pounds trailer + 600 pounds (family and gear) = 8,443

4,425 pounds/128 horsepower = 34.5 pounds per horsepower
8,443 pounds/248 horsepower = 34.0 pounds per horsepower

Yes, it is half a pound off... I rounded a bit. The F150 would actually have to be pulling a trailer that weighs 3,110 pounds to equal the power to weight ratio of the Scion pulling the Scamp.

I will say that the Scion is pulling about as much as it is designed to (well, within 200-some pounds of it), and the F150 can tow a lot more than 3,110 pounds. I agree that the F150 can tow more than my Scion. There is no argument there. But to say that the Scion xD, which comes from the factory with a 1,600+ pound tow rating should not tow a 1,200 pound trailer plus 200 pounds of gear simply does not make sense to me. Yes, I could tow it with a vehicle that is rated to tow four times the weight... but why on Earth would I do that? Seems pretty inefficient and excessive to me. I don't need the cargo room of a pickup truck, though many people find it useful. I could make the same argument that anyone towing a Scamp with an F150 should be using an F250. Or anyone with an F250 should have an F350. I could also make the argument that gasoline engines are no good for towing... everyone should have a diesel.

Unit body cars are great for towing within their limits. I have done so for my entire driving life. Many thousands of miles with many different trailers (including ones weighing more than 4,000 pounds). Never have I experienced any sway, loss of control, lack of braking power, or damage to the tow vehicle.

I understand that many people wish to tow with a truck or SUV, and that is fine. However, as long as you are towing within the limits that the manufacturer gives for a particular car or truck, it can be done safely and responsibly.

[Raya]

As long as there is no issue towing over the published US limits for a given vehicle in the US. I would have thought that might come into play if something were to happen.

Edited to add: And I DO tow with a foreign car, but it is rated to tow well over the weight of my trailer (about 100% more). Here, in the US and in the US owner's manual.

[Kip in Ga.]

As I've said before I don't own a large pick up or large SUV. I do own a medium size. But for the sake of discussion let's consider large pickups compared to a Scion xD.

Staying with the Ford F150. While the small V8 has had 248 HP, more important for towing purposes it has 294 Ft Lbs of Torque.

For 2011, the base V8 has 360 hp and 380 ft lbs of torque. The smallest engine they now offer in the full size pickup is a 3.7 liter V6

With a 6 foot bed it weighs 4685 lbs

V6 engine = 302 HP at 6500 rpm
and 278 foot lbs torque at 4000 rpm

Maximum Payload: 1710 lbs. Passengers and cargo
Wheel Base: 125.9 in
Maximum Towing Capacity: 8300 lbs. (6100 lbs w/V6)
Transmission: 6 speed automatic

2011 Ford F-150 specs, auto safety at Edmunds

F-150 (2011)
4685 + 600 cargo and gear + 3000 trailer + 8285
8285 div by 302 HP = 27.43 lbs per HP
8285 div by 278 ft lbs torque = 29.8 lbs per ft lbs torque.
( Note: Last years V8 would be 33.4 lbs per HP. More importantly it figures to 28.2 lbs per ft Lbs of torque.)

2011 Scion xD:

Curb Weight: 2665 lbs.
Base Engine Size: 1.8 liters
Horsepower: 128 hp @ 6000RPM
Torque: 125 ft-lbs @4400 RPM
Transmission: 4 Speed automatic
Wheel Base: 96.9 in.
2011 Scion xD specs, auto safety at Edmunds

Scion 2665 + 600 family and gear + 1200 Scamp = 4465
4465 div by 128 hp = 34.9 lbs per hp.
4465 " " 125 lbs tq = 35.7 lbs per ft lbs tq.

Chevy's Smallest V8 from last year has 302 hp and 305 ft lbs of torque.
It is rated to tow 5900 LBS.

FWIW: Horse power is nice to talk about but the real work is done by torque. That is why a 300 HP road tractor can tow many thousand lbs of trailer and cargo. That diesel engine has globs of torque. A 300 HP gas engine would not do the same job. That is not to say that to tow an Egg we need a diesel or a road tractor. Not to say we even need a pickup truck or SUV. But we do need enough torque, enough tow vehicle weight, and enough wheel base, to do the job safely.

Also this forum is about towing Eggs. They will generally weigh 1200-2400 lbs plus gear and people.

Those of us towing in the USA need to adhere to the laws of this country.
I personally tend to error on the side of caution. There are plenty of vehicles out there with reccomended tow capacities to easily handle Egg campers. They can be purchased in foreign and domestic flavors.

This discussion could go on forever. But I will end my part with this:

"Mr. Jones here was towing a trailer that weighed 1200# and another 600 lbs of people and gear. In this country that is above the manufacturers recommended limits for that vehicle.......! Now according to Mr. Jones, his vehicle is rated to tow almost that much in Japan. But we are not in Japan, are we? You the jury must convict due to negligence on his part. "

Kip

[mcbrew]

The numbers don't matter in a lawsuit. Our legal system is simply not that sensible. My retail store got sued for a pre-packaged item not having a certain warning label on it. I am NOT responsible for labeling a pre-packaged good. That is the responsibility of the manufacturer. For instance, if you buy a Coke and it makes you sick, the gas station that sold you the bottle of Coke is not responsible... coke is, because it pre-packaged. Anyway, I still ended up having to pay... And the product wasn't even responsible for the damage in the first place... And the insurance company who sued us also sued three other companies and won three of the cases, claiming that their products ALSO caused the same damage. This was a fire, by the way... And the product I sold was sugar. They also sued Clorox, saying that their cleaning wiped caused the fire. My point is that you can sue someone on ANY grounds, even if there are already rules protecting that person, or if the claims are scientifically impossible... And you can win.

I am no more worried about causing an accident while towing than I am about causing an accident when not towing. I can be sued either way. Even if it is NOT my fault, I may lose either way. That is the nature of our legal system.

By the way, the government does not say that I cannot tow with my car. Toyota says that they reserve them right tom deny warranty claims if towing causes damage to the vehicle. Towing laws vary from state to state, and many do not reference the capabilities of the tow vehicle at all.

[mcbrew]

Kip, I completely understand about torque. My current car is my first car that was not diesel powered. I do miss the low end torque... My previous car put out about 200 pounds of torque at 1,900 RPM. However, it sounds like you are making the claim that my car simply cannot tow a Scamp. I invite you to come along on a ride. It accelerates fine, hold highway speeds on all but the steepest hills around here, and would easily tow at dangerous speeds. The engine runs at normal operating temperatures... It rarely even kicks the cooling fan on. Oil analysis shows less than normal wear on my engine, and that is at 10,000 mile oil change intervals (twice what Toyota commends). Tires run at appropriate temperatures. Braking is good. What more could I ask for?

[floyd]

I feel foolishly compelled to at least peripherally enter the fray on this subject once again, not because of the particulars, but rather because of the ubiquitous proliferation of redundancy in general on the subject.[lol]
Therefore, it is not aimed at any particular person,or material provided by him.

There seems to be a lot of heat on this subject, but not a lot of light.
This is often the case when real experience and understanding are displaced by a remarkable ability to surf the internet.
Quoting non existent legal requirements or trying to intimidate with insubstantial spectres of hypothetical law suites does nothing more than ofuscate the issue.

Of course, a tow vehicle should be adequate for the task at hand, but HP and torque have little to do with safety and much more to do with how much of a hurry you happen to be in. Rated capacities include the strength of drive line components and their ability to withstand the stress of the work which they are required to perform, [gearing, clutch size, etc.]
Chassis design,brakes, suspension components,and towing equipment are the issues which most affect safety, and while most important, are the least and last items discussed,and for obvious reasons.
These require a knowledge of the individual application,pertinent modifications, and of course the "torque" of the nut behind the wheel.

[mcbrew]

Stop making so much sense, Floyd! This discussion is supposed to be driven by emotions and internet innuendo.

I don't know if many of the original designers of 13' FGRVs are around these days... if not, they are rolling around in their graves... these things were designed to be towed by small cars.

[Kip in Ga.]

>"There seems to be a lot of heat on this subject, but not a lot of light.
This is often the case when real experience and understanding are displaced by a remarkable ability to surf the internet."

I don't know the experience of others.

Long before the internet existed, I towed campers from 17' to 30' in length and from 2500 lbs to 5200 lbs plus gear for near 20 years. Add to that the conversations with other campers, many of them full timers. The last 5 years almost every weekend. .
I've heard horror stories, and seen first hand what can happen when towing with an inadequate vehicle. In a nutshell the more experienced campers pretty much agreed that while it is possible to overkill, generally speaking it is hard to have too much tow vehicle. And easy to not have enough. Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done.

Rarely will we hear someone say they wanted to downsize their TV.

Our last dedicated tow vehicle was a 1978 Chevy 3/4 ton G20 Van with a 350 cubic inch V8. Found out fairly quick that although adequate for the rolling hills in our area, it struggled in the mountains pulling the 5200+ lb camper. So I modified it with proper gearing, proper cam, better heads, better carburation, and exhaust system. Beefed up the suspension, and installed a torque converter with the proper stall characteristics. Every item was done with torque and towing in mind, not speed. With that all done it was no longer causing traffic to stack up behind on one lane mountain roads and folks passing in dangerous conditions. This also helped fuel mileage by 2-3 mpg when towing.

Someone earlier mentioned that a vehicle built for towing was a good thing to have and safer. Generally speaking many pickup trucks may have torque converters with higher stall rates than cars. More robust suspension, better cooling, larger brakes etc., because they are designed to do heavier duty work.

"...Chassis design,brakes, suspension components,and towing equipment are the issues which most affect safety...". and "Rated capacities include the strength of drive line components and their ability to withstand the stress of the work which they are required to perform, [gearing, clutch size, etc."

Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

And when a newbie ask a question, we should answer it to the best of our ability.

Kip

[floyd]

"Overkill" comes pretty easy when towing a 13ft Scamp, and it defeats the very purpose of their existence...
"Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done."

I probably wouldn't tow anything with an XD, but then I wouldn't own a trailer if I had to drive a G20 to tow it.... motels start looking good and competitive at that point.

[Kip in Ga.]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Kip, I completely understand about torque. My current car is my first car that was not diesel powered. I do miss the low end torque... My previous car put out about 200 pounds of torque at 1,900 RPM. However, it sounds like you are making the claim that my car simply cannot tow a Scamp. I invite you to come along on a ride.

Jesse,

I don't recall saying that. Which post is it in?

Mount a 14 inch tire under the front and it can be pulled on level ground with a bicycle or golf car.

You brought up the comparison to a F150 V8.

"In theory, yes... but many large trucks and SUVs are inherently unsafe."

"I do want to point out that my Scion towing my Scamp and my family has the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing a 3,000 pound trailer."

"Actually, I did the math... and my Scion towing a 1,200 pound Scamp plus my family plus our camping gear does have the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ford F150 towing my family and my camping gear and a 3,000 pound trailer. That is a fact."

I did the math also and posted links as to where the numbers came from.
You are welcome to recheck my numbers and submit any errors you may find. But I really don't know how an F150 and a 3000 LB trailer has anything to do with this thread.

In the scheme of things, what either of us may feel strongly about doesn't really matter. We should state our opinions and respectfully aknowledge other's rights to do the same.

You apparently choose to ride the edge!

"I will say that the Scion is pulling about as much as it is designed to (well, within 200-some pounds of it)"

And that is what you should do.

I prefer to have a TV with at least 30% reserve. If I'm towing 2800 lb, I want the TV to have a rating of at least 3650 lb. And that is what I should do. My Honda has a tow rating of 5000 lbs. That should be a nice reserve for a 16' EGG.

Kip