MPG Halved by Boler

[841K9]

Originally Posted by MC1

Roger, you summed it up nicely.

I have followed the FWD Mini Van towing craze for many years now.

The following vehicles seems to have very stout trannys.

Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna's, Ford Windstars/Freestars and Honda Oddy's. I know of many examples of these that did extensive towing of various sizes of TT's without any tranny issues.

Note the Honda Oddys did have an issue with lubrication that a TB fixed. The problem was not a weak tranny as many suspect.

What, exactly, was the issue with those Odyssey transmissions? I remember some people going through one every 30,000. (Which still beats the Kokomo built Chryslers by 29,999- if anyone still remembers that fiasco)

[841K9]

Originally Posted by MC1

Not sure about this one. Our Nissan Quest had a very HD tranny that is almost identical as the tranny found in the full size RWD Infiniti Q45 sedan, (a V8 powered vehicle). Our van did a lot of towing and was still good at 435,000klms (300,000 miles).

300,000 miles from a passenger vehicle auto trans? You should go out and buy some lotto tickets.

Passenger vehicles are for just that- passengers. They can occasionally tow, but are not meant to do so every day. There is a huge difference between an Allison and anything made by Nissan. (Remember, Nissan stops at 1/2 ton)

[arlon]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Well, I guess you're smarter than the Carlisle Engineers.

From my experience with Carlisle tires, that wouldn't take very much at all.

As to the OP: Towing anything is going to kill mileage, that's just a simple fact. You just have to live with it or get a hotel room.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by 841K9

300,000 miles from a passenger vehicle auto trans? You should go out and buy some lotto tickets.

Passenger vehicles are for just that- passengers. They can occasionally tow, but are not meant to do so every day. There is a huge difference between an Allison and anything made by Nissan. (Remember, Nissan stops at 1/2 ton)

It is not about being lucky. It is about researching and investigating the specs and data on the equipement in question.

Actually many cars have very heavy duty parts. Our 2nd Nissan Quest a 1997, has almost 200,000 miles on it and again the tranny works like new.

Our 03 Infiniti sedan with 125,000 miles on it has no tranny issues and it has 200hrs of towing on it and we are talking a dual axle TT.

If you do the reseach you find that our passenger car tranny is the same Jatco 5 speed that is used in the larger Infiniti FX35 and the V8 Infiniti FX45 SUV. There is so much more to the subject than vague, general assumptions.

[lhanna]

Wow! So much information! Just wondering though, does your boler have any significant mod's? I've seen a lot of fabulous rebuilds on here and they have had to have added to the weight, some significant, some not. Maybe a combination of that and some of the suggestions on here? Myself, I can't really comment on gas mileage. Don't notice any difference whatsoever - I'm towing a Trillium 1300 with a 2008 Dodge 1/2 ton with a Hemi. Vrooom!

[RogerDat]

On trannies, our Escape V6 with 3500 lb towing capacity that never towed anything but utility trailer for lumber or landscape supplies at less than 2500 lbs, and that use was seldom and less than 10 miles, had a total trans burnout at around 40k miles.

There are "rumors" of a bad weld leading to a tiny loss of pressure and that causes the problem. But at the shop the parts were all so burnt could not tell what went first.

Looking at a used Saturn awhile back and mechanic advised me to check which trans it had, one had reputation as rock solid, one not so much. Either one could be in same model.

Suburban diesel at least in the early years used trans parts out of a Catapillar, not going to break that very easy.

So from my experience it really varies and so I second you just have to do some checking and research with unbiased sources. Or just ask on the forum "can I tow x trailer with my y car".

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by 841K9

What, exactly, was the issue with those Odyssey transmissions?

Odyssey Transmission website

I followed up on the recall of my 2003 Odyssey, and the dealer "revise(d) the oil cooler return line to increase lubrication to the second gear." This recall was supposed to fix the Odyssey transmission issue that previously occurred in the 1999-2001 models. However, my transmission totally failed at 90,000 miles during a trip when I was towing the Fiber Stream. Suspecting my failure to tow out-of-overdrive was a contributing factor, I replaced the transmission and got a new warrantee on it. While it took a $5K bite out of my wallet, a $30K+ replacement Odyssey (LX) was out of the question. Now at 120,000 miles and counting...

[RogerDat]

Something else just popped into my head on mpg being low while towing. All wheel drive. If the front wheels turn faster than the rear wheels due to a loss of traction the all wheel drive could be kicking in as a response each time it happens, and that would really wreck the gas milage. If the front wheels turn faster than rear it looks like slippery road conditions to the computer.

Even a pretty tiny difference in tire "speed" between front and rear can trigger that. Our Honda CRV had new tires put on rear axle with about 10k miles on the set due to road hazard damage. The 10k difference in tire diameter between front and rear due to wear was enough to trigger all wheel drive all the time because the front tires are going "faster".

[arlon]

Originally Posted by xichael

We just took our new Boler on her maiden voyage and were shocked to see the MPG meter on our '05 Caravan reading 11-15, where it would normally be 24-27.

Last summer I towed a utility trailer which weighed roughly the same, but was about 3 feet shorter, and it had little effect — maybe 2 or 3 MPG.

This means it's entirely a problem of aerodynamics. Really, really bad aerodynamics.

I really hope there are solutions to this, because otherwise we'll probably have to give up the dream and sell the Boler...

I guess a blown tranny/torque converter could cause mileage issues.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

There are "rumors" of a bad weld leading to a tiny loss of pressure and that causes the problem. But at the shop the parts were all so burnt could not tell what went first.



Suburban diesel at least in the early years used trans parts out of a Catapillar, not going to break that very easy.
.

What year escape was it?
There was a major design flaw in the valve body.

The suburban diesels used the TH400 and 700R4 in the first gen diesel behind the 6.2 and the 4l80E behind the second gen behind the 6.5.
I don't recall anything about CAT diesel having anything to do with them. Especially since CAT was partnered with Navistar and Ford.
But, if there was something from CAT- I would really like to have it for my K5's 6.2.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by MC1

It is not about being lucky. It is about researching and investigating the specs and data on the equipement in question.

Actually many cars have very heavy duty parts.

If you do the reseach you find that our passenger car tranny is the same Jatco 5 speed that is used in the larger Infiniti FX35 and the V8 Infiniti FX45 SUV. There is so much more to the subject than vague, general assumptions.

What weight do you consider heavy duty?

Anything with a capacity of less than 10,000lbs is considered "light duty" by the auto/truck industry.

I base my opinion on experience maintaining and rebuilding all sorts of equipment ranging from grandma's Grand Marquis to EMD 567 prime movers. Though, it has been some time since I've worked on "cars".

[MC1]

Originally Posted by 841K9

What weight do you consider heavy duty?

Anything with a capacity of less than 10,000lbs is considered "light duty" by the auto/truck industry.

When I say HD I am talking about a part that is better than average in it's performance expectation. I used our car as an example. The Infiniti FX45 V8 has 330HP/330TQ. Our car has a 260HP/260TQ V6. Both vehicles use the same transmission. As I stated the car has pulled a dual axle trailer for over 200hours. Considering all these facts I consider the Jatco transmission in our car HD. I guess I could have called it HQ (high quality), PR (problem free) or OB (over built). I guess all terms could apply.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by 841K9

What year escape was it?
There was a major design flaw in the valve body.

The suburban diesels used the TH400 and 700R4 in the first gen diesel behind the 6.2 and the 4l80E behind the second gen behind the 6.5.
I don't recall anything about CAT diesel having anything to do with them. Especially since CAT was partnered with Navistar and Ford.
But, if there was something from CAT- I would really like to have it for my K5's 6.2.

2005 Escape had the failed trans.

Suburban not Cat trans but borrowed parts, specifically mentioned was torque converter.

Friend of mine with suburban used as a work truck hit the highway and could not hold 3rd gear, kept down shifting then back up. Took it to transmission shop they said needed new torque converter for big $$$ they then said they could probably get a rebuilt for a little less when that price looked like it would not fly. He limped home to figure out what to do.

His uncle worked at GM proving grounds, he gave him a call. Uncle went over to trans mechanic started describing symptoms, mechanic kept finishing sentence. Went on to say the torque converter was originally from Cat no way it failed. Have him snap the passing gear valve a couple of times, gets crud on it and sticks open. Yep, fixed the problem.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Suburban not Cat trans but borrowed parts, specifically mentioned was torque converter.

Ah, that explains.
It must have been from the Topkick/Kodiak with the optional CAT engine.