Please tell us your Motivation

[ruscal]

The trailer towing speed limit was 45mph in California up until maybe the 1970's. I got tagged towing a tent trailer through Ventura on two successive summer camping vacations. One ticket for going 50mph and another for 47mph the next year. The CHP had a "trailer trap" set up there.
Russ

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by Daniel A.

Ed's point is good I tend to agree.

I fail to see why you would think this or any other topic is wasted space on a server, forums promote discussion that is there purpose.

I own a forum and moderators generally don't have access to server issues.

Daniel

I was really saying that the development of standards will not change the way anyone may justify their towing not that I had any comment about server space.

I also think Jim was not really talking about server space either?
I think he was offering that if there were standards developed and applied then maybe this tired debate would stop somewhat?

Is that about right Jim?

[Daniel A.]

Ed even with standards the issue won't go away.

Look at truck campers and how overloaded people run weight.

Here in the province of BC they have actually started enforcement on those as camping season starts.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by 841K9

What are you towing with?

My limiter is engine speed. A 6.2 Detroit can only turn so fast before rods start flying through the block.

A 6.2 D.... that explains it, and so much torque!! Nice.

Infiniti G35 grocery getter (4 door sedan).

[841K9]

Originally Posted by MC1

A 6.2 D.... that explains it, and so much torque!! Nice.

Infiniti G35 grocery getter (4 door sedan).

I would be really impressed if I saw a G35 hit 150mph.

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

Daniel

I was really saying that the development of standards will not change the way anyone may justify their towing not that I had any comment about server space.

I also think Jim was not really talking about server space either?
I think he was offering that if there were standards developed and applied then maybe this tired debate would stop somewhat?

Is that about right Jim?

Correct, constructive opinions are one thing, but discussion opinions are something else, which is what I and yourself were referring to in the tired debate statement.

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by Daniel A.

Ed even with standards the issue won't go away.

Look at truck campers and how overloaded people run weight.

Here in the province of BC they have actually started enforcement on those as camping season starts.

Exactly my point too!
We are saying the same thing.

Also I framed the question to kick this off so we might get to understand the forces really driving the decision and so far there do seem to be common answers mostly.

[Cathi]

Ed, with regard to this forum and others, people usually seem to want to know what the towing capacities are and whether or not they meet them or how to meet them. Unfortunately though, the questions are usually framed in such a manner as to get unhelpful answers. "I have X for a tow vehicle, what can I tow with it?" or "I have X for a tow vehicle and can it tow X trailer?" Then lots of folks respond, "I tow with this vehicle, so of course you can."

If there were some clear and simple instructions as to how one figures out meeting the towing capacities, I am sure many people would make use of them. There is info here on having solar power, for instance. It is a daily question as to what can be towed with what.

I have read that next year, some American manufacturers have agreed to use certain Society of Automotive Engineers testing for tow ratings. The Toyota 4Runner was the first car tested and marketed using the SAE testing. I am sure that the reason Toyota was glad to put the 4Runner out there under this testing is that its ratings were the same before and after.

Some people do use the excuse that they think the ratings are without foundation. As of next year, that could be history. Most vehicles would be under the same standards, if this testing is implemented. It covers several towing situations of a very exact nature. There are a number of vehicles that have gone through the tests but did not pass. In other words, these vehicles are still being marketed as able to tow what they apparently can't tow without difficulty, if at all.

You will always have those who will be creative in "meeting" the capacities but I do not think that most people are in that category.

[Alf S.]

Hi: All... A set of standards for towing vehicles is a good thing, but like fuel mileage ratings, will they be valid in the real world!!!
What isn't good is thinking all new comers to the forum understand what's involved. Most...like me don't understand all the computer/forum functions. We still have good reasons to reserect tired old discussions, or redirect them, for their towing pleasure.
Anybody know anything about "OKRA's" whereabouts???
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie

[Cathi]

OKRA?? I don't like okra but my husband does. I just asked him.
"Oprah? Sure, I like Oprah. But I haven't seen her lately."

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Alf S.

Anybody know anything about "OKRA's" whereabouts???
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie

. Dixie, Alf. Ya gotta go to Dixie

[Ian-Vicki]

I have towed at or over the tow limit for our Ranger and did not feel I put anyone at risk, except me and my pocketbook. Our 2007 Ranger with standard transmission had a ow limit of 3200 lbs and our burro, loaded, weighed 2800. With stuff and us in the truck, we were likely over that limit. But the same truck with an automatic transmission was rated for 5400 lbs. Same brakes, same suspension, same everything except the transmission and the limit. That tells me Ford was setting a limit to protect their clutch, and not as a safety limit, since the ruck itself was more than capable of the heavier weight. So away I went, without qualms.
cheers
Ian

[floyd]

This is truly only a sociology excercise. Those who are bought in must defend the paradigm against all sceptics. Unfortunately....ALL social structures are, at their roots, systems of coercion and domination.

[RogerDat]

For me I will go over on a one off sitution for a short hop. E.G. once towed a Mercury Marquis 25 miles home with an Olds Omega, or close to a ton in my 1/2 ton pick up for a couple of miles (loved that ford straight 6). But the liability and expectation that pushing the limit will always involve some measure of excessive wear and tear tend to keep me in the stay under limit camp.

Then there is the "oops I can't" factor of being under powered.
My Father towed a small 5th wheel around Colorado and even from there back here to Michigan with a somewhat underpowered small pickup. No problems until he had to stop on a steep grade for road work that only left one lane open. Simply could not get going on that much up hill grade. It was a mess with long line of cars behind him and no room to turn around. He had to back down the mountain pass for a long way.

He went out and upgraded to a different small pickup with a tow rating that made it suitable for his rig, bit more power and a granny 1st gear.

We have two cars, my little 12 yr. old commute mobile for work, and wife has the V6 Escape we tow with that has a 3500lbs rating which is plenty for a 13ft Scamp. If we only had one car we would have to compromise between fuel economy and tow capacity but I would not cut that tow capacity too close.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

My UHaul manual says 45 mph maximum also.

Any faster, certain death!

My first travel trailer towing experience was a 13' Uhaul egg with a '84 Dodge Omni 2.2L (1000 lb tow rating). And I drove 55 mph too! 2000 miles, from Michigan to Colorado and back.

Why did I do it? First, the Omni was all I had, and I really wanted to vacation with the trailer. No way could I afford to buy something else then (age 26, wife and 2 young kids, and I was back in college part time to boot). Second, I had some experience towing a little utility trailer with the Omni and an Aries. Third, I asked my dad, who had much experience, and he said yes I could do it safely if I took it easy, allowed extra room ahead of me for stopping, downshifted on grades, etc. Note that my dad had "been around the block" a few times when it came to towing trailers; he actually taught me about trailer sway and WD hitches when I was about 10 years old, so I respected his opinion on towing.

Everything went fine on that trip as far as towing was concerned. Only problems were the heater and front window, but the trailer towed straight and true. It didn't kill the Omni and we didn't kill anybody.

So I guess I did it because I wanted to, I felt I could do it safely, and I couldn't afford to do it any other way.

I think that tow ratings on vehicles are a good guideline, but they are not always (perhaps even rarely) definitive with regard to what can be towed safely. Take the Tacoma for example. With the V6 it has one rating (5K or 6K? I forget), with the 4cyl it is 3500 lbs. The consensus appears to be that the weak link is the rear diff. Same wheelbase, same brakes (I think), same suspension... but different drive train. This has little to do with safety. If I want to tow a 4500 lb. trailer with a 4 cyl Tacoma, I think it would be safe. And if I fried the differential I'd just replace it with a bigger aftermarket one. The Taco could tow the larger trailer safely, just not necessarily without consequences to the vehicle components. Other pickups and other vehicles will yield similar examples of varying tow ratings based largely on drive train. Therefore I feel that tow ratings are not something we should be totally dogmatic about.

[HikeSticks]

When I towed my 13' Trillium with my Jetta the decision was made because I owned the Jetta before I bought the Trillium. I already had a tow hitch on the Jetta and really enjoyed the car and didn't want to change. I also really wanted the Trillium once I had the chance to buy it. I took care balancing the weight, added brakes on the trailer and a controller and changed the tires on the trailer to ST's. I started towing it short distances to develop a comfort level and eventually towed it from NB to FL and back as well as around northern ON. I never had a problem and it stopped on a dime when needed. I will also add I retired after 35 years in the trucking business and have hauled a variety trailers. I was neither cheap nor over confident.

FYI
Barrie

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Daniel A.

Ed even with standards the issue won't go away.

Look at truck campers and how overloaded people run weight.

Here in the province of BC they have actually started enforcement on those as camping season starts.

Sorry Ed I know you indicated at the start of this topic that you only wanted to hear from those who are towing over their vehicles rated towing numbers but curiosity got the better of me.

Daniel raises a good point.

What would be the big difference between a test done by unbiased engineers vs a test done by the engineers who built the vehicle? other than as someone has already pointed out here that some vehicles that have been tested so far have been found to not be up to the a vehicles rated towing numbers as set by the manufactures. Which funny enough fly's in the face of the argument put forward here so often for towing over the manufactures rated towing numbers that the tow ratings in NA are set far to low.

It would be interested to hear from those who currently tow over their vehicles rated towing numbers if a standardized test really would make any difference to their decision to tow over the manufactures rated towing numbers. What would be the game changer that would make you take notice more of one tow rating test vs the other?

I suspect that as a result of some of the accidents that have taken place on the main highway on Vancouver Island involving over loaded pick ups (mostly truck camper & boat combos) that we will continue to see weight safety checks - standardized tow rating tests or not.

As a side note I think in keeping with the bases for starting this thread it may also be equally as interesting and educational to start another thread having folks state their reasons for not towing over their vehicles rated towing numbers.

[cpaharley2008]

This discussion is like talking about going thru a red light when there is no one around, you are violating the law but not getting caught. That is different than not violating the law and having an accident. Which scenario do you want to be in? I'd rather be in the second one.

[honda03842]

Posters frequently write about violating the law when towing with a vehicle with low or no tow rating. As far as I know there is no law to violate.

My Honda CRV is rated for 1600 kg (3500 lbs) with a lesser engine in Europe. Our Scamp 16 weighs 2400 lbs. Our Scamp is only 69% of the maximum allowed in Europe. The Honda's maximim hitch weight is 220 lbs in the UK, our hitch weighs 30 lbs less than the maximum.

We drive conservatively, don't speed, are courteous to other drivers, check our hitch regularly, test our car and trailer lights every day we tow and monitor our tire pressure continuously on the Tow Vehicle and the trailer.

We are often passed by both big and small trailers towing with "lawful" tow vehicles well exceeding our speeds even when we're going 60 mph. In states where the speed limit for trailers is 55 mph we are continuously passed by speeding trailers.

I believe we are extremely safe RVers and breaking no law.

It irks me to no end that Honda North America treats North Americans like children and gives us a dramatically lower rating than the UK and Germany.

[cpaharley2008]

The law is what a jury interprets such as beyond a reasonable doubt or what a reasonable person would do or whether that person had knowledge that he or she was not in compliance, or what is ordinary and necessary, an so on. My point is there is/are published guidelines that some ignore and some follow. When there is an accident and insurance lawyers involved, the law can be quite different than what you and I think it may or should be. Recent well known court cases are examples of what a group of 12 can interpret.
As far as flagrant violations, the law is only as effective as the enforcement thereof or lack of enforcement as the case may be. In either case, until there is an incident, it is what it is. But now we maybe going off topic.