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Old 05-01-2012, 11:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Daniel A. View Post
Ed even with standards the issue won't go away.

Look at truck campers and how overloaded people run weight.

Here in the province of BC they have actually started enforcement on those as camping season starts.
Sorry Ed I know you indicated at the start of this topic that you only wanted to hear from those who are towing over their vehicles rated towing numbers but curiosity got the better of me.

Daniel raises a good point.

What would be the big difference between a test done by unbiased engineers vs a test done by the engineers who built the vehicle? other than as someone has already pointed out here that some vehicles that have been tested so far have been found to not be up to the a vehicles rated towing numbers as set by the manufactures. Which funny enough fly's in the face of the argument put forward here so often for towing over the manufactures rated towing numbers that the tow ratings in NA are set far to low.

It would be interested to hear from those who currently tow over their vehicles rated towing numbers if a standardized test really would make any difference to their decision to tow over the manufactures rated towing numbers. What would be the game changer that would make you take notice more of one tow rating test vs the other?

I suspect that as a result of some of the accidents that have taken place on the main highway on Vancouver Island involving over loaded pick ups (mostly truck camper & boat combos) that we will continue to see weight safety checks - standardized tow rating tests or not.

As a side note I think in keeping with the bases for starting this thread it may also be equally as interesting and educational to start another thread having folks state their reasons for not towing over their vehicles rated towing numbers.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:44 AM   #58
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This discussion is like talking about going thru a red light when there is no one around, you are violating the law but not getting caught. That is different than not violating the law and having an accident. Which scenario do you want to be in? I'd rather be in the second one.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:33 PM   #59
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Violating what law?

Posters frequently write about violating the law when towing with a vehicle with low or no tow rating. As far as I know there is no law to violate.

My Honda CRV is rated for 1600 kg (3500 lbs) with a lesser engine in Europe. Our Scamp 16 weighs 2400 lbs. Our Scamp is only 69% of the maximum allowed in Europe. The Honda's maximim hitch weight is 220 lbs in the UK, our hitch weighs 30 lbs less than the maximum.

We drive conservatively, don't speed, are courteous to other drivers, check our hitch regularly, test our car and trailer lights every day we tow and monitor our tire pressure continuously on the Tow Vehicle and the trailer.

We are often passed by both big and small trailers towing with "lawful" tow vehicles well exceeding our speeds even when we're going 60 mph. In states where the speed limit for trailers is 55 mph we are continuously passed by speeding trailers.

I believe we are extremely safe RVers and breaking no law.

It irks me to no end that Honda North America treats North Americans like children and gives us a dramatically lower rating than the UK and Germany.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:49 PM   #60
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The law is what a jury interprets such as beyond a reasonable doubt or what a reasonable person would do or whether that person had knowledge that he or she was not in compliance, or what is ordinary and necessary, an so on. My point is there is/are published guidelines that some ignore and some follow. When there is an accident and insurance lawyers involved, the law can be quite different than what you and I think it may or should be. Recent well known court cases are examples of what a group of 12 can interpret.
As far as flagrant violations, the law is only as effective as the enforcement thereof or lack of enforcement as the case may be. In either case, until there is an incident, it is what it is. But now we maybe going off topic.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:12 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Sorry Ed I know you indicated at the start of this topic that you only wanted to hear from those who are towing over their vehicles specs but curiosity got the better of me.

Daniel raises a good point.

What would be the big difference between a test done by unbiased engineers vs a test done by the engineers who built the vehicle? other than as someone has already pointed out here that some vehicles that have been tested so far have been found to not be up to the tow rating set by the manufactures. Which funny enough fly's in the face of the argument put forward here so often for towing over the manufactures tow cap that the tow ratings in NA are set far to low.

It would be interested to hear from those who currently tow over their vehicle specs if a standardized test really would make any difference to their decision to tow over the manufactures published cap. What would be the game changer that would make you take notice more of one tow rating test vs the other?

I suspect that as a result of some of the accidents that have taken place on the main highway on Vancouver Island involving over loaded pick ups (mostly truck camper & boat combos) that we will continue to see weight safety checks - standardized tow rating tests or not.

As a side note I think in keeping with the bases for starting this thread it may also be equally as interesting and educational to start another thread having folks state their reasons for not towing over their vehicles tow cap.
You(and others) have obfuscated the question by using the terms... rating,capacity,and specifications, as if they were interchangable.
I think the question refered to "a vehicles rated towing numbers" which are immutable and often subject to caveats.
Specificatons are merely technical data... generally without admonition.
Capacity refers to the maximum suitability or capability... and is obviously subject to change due to competent aftermarket modification, that which may be averred here from either side notwithstanding.
I apologize for failing miserably in my attempt to stay out of this discussion since it is inevitably fraught with innuendo, inferrence and implication.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:15 PM   #62
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Sheesh Floyd, I have to go dig out my dictionary again, LOL. Seriously though I love reading your posts, they are always educational and informative. If I want to learn a new word a day all I have to do is find your posts, lol.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:53 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd View Post
You(and others) have obfuscated the question by using the terms... rating,capacity,and specifications, as if they were interchangable.
I think the question refered to "a vehicles rated towing numbers" which are immutable and often subject to caveats.
Specificatons are merely technical data... generally without admonition.
Capacity refers to the maximum suitability or capability... and is obviously subject to change due to competent aftermarket modification, that which may be averred here from either side notwithstanding.
I apologize for failing miserably in my attempt to stay out of this discussion since it is inevitably fraught with innuendo, inferrence and implication.
Sorry Floyd I will try and go back and correct my post to read as you suggest "vehicles rated towing numbers" to avoid any confusion as there was no innuendo, inference and implications intended by my question.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:11 PM   #64
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I'm so tired of this worn out topic I could scream. The members I feel sorry for are the newbies who've never towed a trailer and are looking for answers.

In Oregon, Norm is correct... there aren't any laws regarding a vehicle with low or no tow rating, except commercial vehicles.

In OREGON, all the responsibility falls on the driver. Remember these words:

"Knowingly," "Substantial and "Unjustifiable Risk," "Reasonable Person," and lastly "Ignorance is not a Defense."

So, while in Oregon there isn't any absolute laws regarding vehicles with tow ratings (non-commercial)... I hope you NEVER find yourself in a position to be charged with any of these types of penalties.

If you care to argue with these Oregon definitions, fine. Just remember, law enforcement has far more tools at their disposal for finding information about manufactured vehicles than you do. If you care enough to spend the time, I respectfully submit you should thoroughly check out the towing and driving laws in your state. Laws go far beyond what you learned in your states handbook when you took your driving test.

Lastly, I'd suggest you never stand before a judge and try to explain that they "do it in Europe," and use that as a defense.

811.140 Reckless driving; penalty.
(1) A person commits the offense of reckless driving if the person recklessly drives a vehicle upon a highway or other premises described in this section in a manner that endangers the safety of persons or property.
(2) The use of the term “recklessly” in this section is as defined in ORS 161.085.
(3) The offense described in this section, reckless driving, is a Class A misdemeanor and is applicable upon any premises open to the public.

OREGON:
CRIMINAL LIABILITY - 161.085 Definitions with respect to culpability.
(8) “Knowingly” or “with knowledge,” when used with respect to conduct or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense, means that a person acts with an awareness that the conduct of the person is of a nature so described or that a circumstance so described exists.

(9) “Recklessly,” when used with respect to a result or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense, means that a person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.

(10) “Criminal negligence” or “criminally negligent,” when used with respect to a result or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense, means that a person fails to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that the failure to be aware of it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:36 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post

It irks me to no end that Honda North America treats North Americans like children and gives us a dramatically lower rating than the UK and Germany.
Agree Norm but the word that comes to my mind is offensive. The auto makers play with the numbers. There's huge profits in those big, heavy pickups and SUV's with the big tow ratings.

This quote I read a while ago really stuck in my mind and sums it up....

QUOTE:

"I'm a ME working under Daimler. Let me tell you, a MAJORITY of the design specifications are not finalized by the engineering department. We can go through rigorous testing to prove the safe limit of a component, and marketing or the lawyers can slap on their veto stamp due to customer demand, perception, and other stupid reasons.

While I have never worked on design for towing, I can almost guarantee that most sedans and minivans are under-rated for marketing reasons. Simple law of physics tell you that the power-weight ratio, handling dynamics, and stopping power of a 3300 lbs, 270hp Altima + 5000 lbs trailer is superior to a 300hp F150 + 11000 lbs trailer.

Tow rig to trailer weight ratio is also largely irrelevant with proper design. Proof: commercial rigs tow trailers weighting many times heavier than the rig itself."



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Old 05-01-2012, 04:45 PM   #66
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Just because you may not be found guilty under criminal law in the event you kill or serious hurt someone does not mean you will get away without paying any damages. OJ Simpson is a good example of that situation. He was found not guilty under criminal law twice but the families of his 2 victims went after him in a personal injury civil lawsuit & won a $33.5 million civil injury settlement. As said here many times what will be considered in a civil cases as to your quilt or innocence is very different from a criminal case.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:12 PM   #67
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I think maybe we're mixing apples and oranges. There's 'breaking the law' or doing things specifically prohibited, things for which specific penalties are codified. Then there's doing things that violate no written law but might incur liability if an incident occurs in which injuries or damages result. I think maybe some folks are referring to the latter things. I think Norm is justified in taking exception to such loose and inaccurate usage of the term, "breaking the law," because it implies that anyone who tows over the recommended limits is a lawbreaker, and this isn't really true. A person may feel that a particular action is dangerous, and that's fine. But let's not call it "breaking the law" when it is not.

Legal activities, whether seemingly dangerous or not, are completely within the actor's discretion (we are free people, more or less). I note that driving at highway speed is an inherently dangerous activity in and of itself, but we do not criticize people for driving because it's their business and they assume the risks of injuring themselves or others with a hurtling mass of steel.

If, however, a particular state or province does have specific towing laws, they should be followed just like speed laws should be followed.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Sorry Floyd I will try and go back and correct my post to read as you suggest "vehicles rated towing numbers" to avoid any confusion as there was no innuendo, inference and implications intended by my question.
Then you must not have inferred that I implied any personal offense! [I didn't]

My son and I have often discussed philosophically ... whether "Words have meaning", or "Meaning has words"! A fine point which becomes magnified with written language.
Where punctuation must take the place of facial expression, body language and inflection, communication can be frustrated, often even exacerbated.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mike Magee View Post
I think maybe we're mixing apples and oranges. There's 'breaking the law' or doing things specifically prohibited, things for which specific penalties are codified. Then there's doing things that violate no written law but might incur liability if an incident occurs in which injuries or damages result. I think maybe some folks are referring to the latter things. I think Norm is justified in taking exception to such loose and inaccurate usage of the term, "breaking the law," because it implies that anyone who tows over the recommended limits is a lawbreaker, and this isn't really true. A person may feel that a particular action is dangerous, and that's fine. But let's not call it "breaking the law" when it is not.

Legal activities, whether seemingly dangerous or not, are completely within the actor's discretion (we are free people, more or less). I note that driving at highway speed is an inherently dangerous activity in and of itself, but we do not criticize people for driving because it's their business and they assume the risks of injuring themselves or others with a hurtling mass of steel.

If, however, a particular state or province does have specific towing laws, they should be followed just like speed laws should be followed.
Mike;
Well written!
I love that last sentence!
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:25 PM   #70
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I'm so tired of this worn out topic I could scream. .............

Yup, I think this summarizes it nicely.




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