Please tell us your Motivation

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Cam A

The conservatives tended to have a larger part of the brain that processes fear and identifies threats. They might be more inclined to integrate conservative views into their politics." The results of the study showed that conservatives had a larger amygdala,[8] an almond-shaped structure of brain involved in processing memory of emotional reactions.[9] Liberals had increased grey matter in the anterior cingulate cortex,[8] a comma-shaped structure of the brain that plays a role in a wide variety of autonomic functions, such as regulating blood pressure and heart rate, as well as rational cognitive functions, such as reward anticipation, decision-making, empathy[10] and emotion.[11][12] .

LOL CAM that's a intresting bit of research sure to generate a new topic!! Funny enough when it comes to the topic at hand I fall into the conservative category, but I have often voted liberal! Yup thats a big political party in my county. Most who know my life style and recreational chooses and hobbies would also suggest I fall into the liberal category not to mention the various personality tests I have had to take for various jobs and management positions etc that suggest that as well ...... oh and I have never had a blood pressure issue either.

Suspect the bottom line is I am more liberal in my decision making process when I am making decision that the end result good or bad only impacts myself & I fall strongly into the conservative category when the decision I am making can impact someone else in a damaging way.

[Cam A]

My input is just an attempt to figure out why this topic seems so virulent on the forum. I see the basic problem not as how one votes, but as physical brain differences with greater tolerance of uncertainty versus enhanced perception of threat. If it were a logical issue, people would be swayed by logic.

[gmw photos]

And here is another example of how "the same model in different markets" have different equipment. I am using a 2006 Frontier to tow the camper. In the rest of the world, they call this model "Navarra", and if you saw them side by side, they look nearly identical. Underneath however, the engines are different ( like in GB and Euro, you can get a sweet 3.0 V6 turbo diesel ), but even parts like the differential are different. Here in the US we get ( the very stout ) Dana 44 9.8" gearset, and limited slip is applied at the end of the axle using the ABS. In europe, it's a totally different final drive ( incorporating limited slip ala "positraction" ).
Obviously the strength of the differential would be a consideration in the manufacturers tow rating. So is our Dana 44 better, or is the one they use over there better ? Ha ! ......anything I would say would just be a wild guess !

[Ed Harris]

European and U.S. 2011 Volkswagen Jetta: The Differences

Another popular vehicle for the justifying here.

Rear axle entirely different among other things.

[cpaharley2008]

I wonder if it is a case of economics. One can take a tour of the Harley Davidson plant here in York, Pa where all the bikes are assembled for shipment throughout the world. They have a color coding system, dependent upon country destination, for each bike as it moves thru assembly, some parts are identical, some are not. Are they the same, definitely not, even the motors are different.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Cam A

My input is just an attempt to figure out why this topic seems so virulent on the forum. I see the basic problem not as how one votes, but as physical brain differences with greater tolerance of uncertainty versus enhanced perception of threat. If it were a logical issue, people would be swayed by logic.

Both sides use logic, one uses logic for why it is "ok" to do what they do/did the other side uses logic for why it is "better" to not do that. Not really the same question or issue. They argue past each other on different subjects.

Is it better and safer to have equipment designed for the task, of course. Does that mean that pushing beyond "rated" capacity won't work? Nope.

One side uses the logic of it works and here is why it is OK. The other side uses logic of why it's not a good idea. Both have sound logic and facts to back them up.

One side points out the risks or logical holes (are US cars the same as Europe?) as a logical counter argument. But really their logic boils down to it's not as safe or good for the equipment. Liability, brake and drive train wear and tear. Which gets countered by I'm a safe driver that knows the limits of my equipment and have had no problem with brakes or drive train. Which gets countered by just because it worked does not mean it's "right".

See how that works? Both are logical but do not prove or disprove the argument of the other side.

Most folks are not going to go along with what they do is "wrong" or a "bad" decision. People tend to defend their decisions with vigor. Especially if it works (but even if it doesn't too). Same for what they think, if they think pushing the limits is "unsafe" for everyone they will be passionate, even though they can really only "prove" that it is less safe not unsafe. Hence the virulent nature of the debate. I would say it is really pretty civilized as these things go, passionate yes but civil.

People do what works for them. And for some liability exposure don't work, for others getting a different TV don't so there you are. And logically both can make their case.

I did not own a car for a couple of years, really could not afford one so I rode my motorcycle through Michigan winters 10 miles each way to and from work. Did I make it ok. Yep, through snow up over my foot pegs. Was it less than safe? Do ya think! And I could make most of the same logical arguments made here on this topic for both sides of that activity.

When I finally could get a car (yeah heat) did I think it was better? You bet, but I would still defend my "less good" actions as logical and correct. And my sister will just as passionately argue that I was an idiot back then.

[BCDave]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I wonder if it is a case of economics. One can take a tour of the Harley Davidson plant here in York, Pa where all the bikes are assembled for shipment throughout the world. They have a color coding system, dependent upon country destination, for each bike as it moves thru assembly, some parts are identical, some are not. Are they the same, definitely not, even the motors are different.

It IS economics - pure & simple. Again, just comparing Canada vs US specs: The US smog laws are WAY tougher - so the US cars get a US-spec engine & driveline that is quite costly to produce relative to the ones that can be used in Canada. In most cases, those powertrains are much more expensive

Canada's safety laws are far more stringent than US ones. Hence the bumpers, seats, seat attachments, seat belts and seat belt attachment points are far more expensive to produce. Very few manufacturers are so magnanimous as to put an expensive US-spec engine into a car that will not require it, nor to put the higher-cost safety gear into a US car.

Canada has a list of cars that can be imported, a list of ones that cannot be imported due to failure to comply with Canadian safety standards and a list of ones that can be modified to meet Canadian standards

If considering buying a car or truck, take a "boo' at a couple of little stickers under the hood. It should have BOTH the Canadian DOT and US DOT certifications, plus "this vehicle is in compliance with..." stickers from both countries. Otherwise, you are running a degree of risk when you cross the border, as you may not be able to get your prized toy serviced during your trip.

[jen b]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

European and U.S. 2011 Volkswagen Jetta: The Differences

Another popular vehicle for the justifying here.

Rear axle entirely different among other things.

I suspect that anybody considering a Jetta for towing is looking at the wagon, which retains the independent rear suspension. The sedan models to me seem unpleasant to drive around in even without a large object being dragged behind, as they've americanized the suspension but(t) good.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by BCDave

The US smog laws are WAY tougher - so the US cars get a US-spec engine & driveline that is quite costly to produce relative to the ones that can be used in Canada.

Unless you buy an EX US government vehicle. Many of them are emissions exempt.

I love loopholes.

[Mike Magee]

Cautiousness covers a wide spectrum. It's not black or white, totally cautious or totally careless. Each person falls somewhere along a line in between the two extremes.

I consider myself fairly cautious, though not as much as my wife. Yet I am open to the possibility of towing with underrated vehicles... cautiously open. And I'm not bothered by those who feel that such towing should not be done; but I do hope they won't be overly dogmatic... or get so wound up that they feel like blowing a head gasket over the issue. I would say: relax, it's just a discussion among friends, and the people seeking advice will hear all of us (both extremes and everything in between) and make their own decisions.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Cam A

OK, hate me if you must, but this needs to be said. This seems to be the single most contentious issue that occurs and re-occurs on this forum, coming the closest to violating the "elegance of behaviour" that we all cherish so much on this forum. Some budding Psychology Phd student should do a thesis on it. Why is it that some have a relaxed “that’s about right” attitude to towing weights, while others seem to feel personally threatened if others do not follow the rules to the letter? Why does a discussion of fact turn so emotional?

Turns out many skilled folks have and it has to do with how your brain works. No amount of logical discourse will alter the basic viewpoints, since those viewpoints seem to arise from physiological factors.

According to a 2011 study[4] by cognitive neuroscientist Ryota Kanai's group[5] at University College London published in Current Biology, people with different political views have different brain structures.[6] The scientists performed MRI scans on 90 volunteer young adult people's brains.[7] According to ABC, "Scans revealed that the liberal students tended to have a larger region of the brain that processes conflicting information. That, say the authors, might make for tolerance to uncertainty in more liberal views. The conservatives tended to have a larger part of the brain that processes fear and identifies threats. They might be more inclined to integrate conservative views into their politics." The results of the study showed that conservatives had a larger amygdala,[8] an almond-shaped structure of brain involved in processing memory of emotional reactions.[9] Liberals had increased grey matter in the anterior cingulate cortex,[8] a comma-shaped structure of the brain that plays a role in a wide variety of autonomic functions, such as regulating blood pressure and heart rate, as well as rational cognitive functions, such as reward anticipation, decision-making, empathy[10] and emotion.[11][12]

Nation & World | Brains of liberals, conservatives may work differently, study finds | Seattle Times Newspaper

http://www.psych.nyu.edu/amodiolab/P...atureNeuro.pdf

So, let the discussion continue, since information exchange is, after all, what this forum is about. But, please, let’s keep it civil.

Did you mean to say "Let's keep it SYBIL"??

[Robin G]

Since watching this post from the 2nd responce I honored Ed's request to allow everyone to explain their motivation. (till, now)


I just got to ask, Ed have you read a explanation that would change the way you tow? Do the explanations make you want to change your tow vehicle?

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

I am trying to understand clearly EXACTLY what is the motivation for towing beyond a vehicles rated towing numbers.

It would be ideal if there would be no social commentary about the conditions driving the ratings and whether ratings are legitimate or realistic or fair but I appreciate that this may be too much to ask.

Here we are, 11 pages later...
Did you get an understanding from all of this, Ed?

Originally Posted by Cam A

So, let the discussion continue, since information exchange is, after all, what this forum is about. But, please, let’s keep it civil.

What I "understand" is this metaphor:

Even when we all have heard the story of Pandora's Box, a lot of us are compelled to open "the box" for ourselves.

Why? Because we can. There can be no lock on the box. Think of all the ratings and laws, and stories of the lawsuits and tragedies as nothing more than warning stickers on the box. This discussion is but more warning stickers.

Some people are content with not opening the box. Others believe that the reason the box exists at all is to be opened. When the former tries to put a lock on the box, the latter obtains bolt-cutters or hack saws or whatever else is necessary.

As a moderator I could close this thread. Another one like it will be started in due time. Because we can.

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by Frederick L. Simson

Here we are, 11 pages later...
Did you get an understanding from all of this, Ed?


.

Frederick, We must have been thinking the same thing at the same time, well almost the same time! Guess I type faster........ minus the metaphor.

Which I will say is something I always ask, the I do it's. Just cause it can be done should it? hmmmmm they have never answered that!

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by Robin G

Since watching this post from the 2nd responce I honored Ed's request to allow everyone to explain their motivation. (till, now)


I just got to ask, Ed have you read a explanation that would change the way you tow? Do the explanations make you want to change your tow vehicle?

No,not even close.

[Ed Harris]

It is tough for me to not Crap in my own thread and expand on this whole thing but I asked for restraint from arguing and discussion for a reason and I need to follow that as well,it is KILLING me too!

One observation though is the way the same information presented here to different people seems to be interpreted entirely differently somehow?
I guess this is Social Commentary in a sense and I will not go into it too deeply right now either.

I have just noticed that the same reason given in a case is looked at as justification to some and a lame excuse by others?

Curious for sure?

I had a Logic Professor whose simple observations were"Itsa so Simple" in heavy Italian accent.

"It is all in your point of view"

Clearly it is.

[gmw photos]

A couple of more thoughts: someone mentioned ( and I'm paraphrasing )that there are folks who have plenty of "facts" to show that it might be safe ( to tow over the limit ).
This reminds me of something a lawyer told me one time as I was being being prepared to testify in court: "never confuse the facts with the truth".

My other thought is that it seems to be human nature to think we know better than what the guy next to us says, and never has this been more true than in cars. Entire industries and billions of dollars are made catering to back yard mechanics that think they know more than the engineeers down at the car factory. What the heck, oil "additives" alone are a good example.
Snake oil, son, snake oil........

Bottom line is it's all about money. Folks who tow with smaller cheaper vehicles do so because they want to save more on purchase price and gas. I would bet you that 99% of the folks using under rated tow vehicles would go out and buy something bigger if they were to win some dough in the state lottery next week.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

Bottom line is it's all about money. Folks who tow with smaller cheaper vehicles do so because they want to save more on purchase price and gas. I would bet you that 99% of the folks using under rated tow vehicles would go out and buy something bigger if they were to win some dough in the state lottery next week.

The irony being that many of those "more efficient" smaller vehicles are harder on fuel while towing than my 3/4 ton Blazer diesel. It usually gets 16-18mpg pulling. The truck does not have overdrive. Plus, it won't need extra repairs from bring stressed to the max.

The best part~ I bought it for $1,500 off of the government with 40,000 documented miles and no rust.

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

A couple of more thoughts: someone mentioned ( and I'm paraphrasing )that there are folks who have plenty of "facts" to show that it might be safe ( to tow over the limit ).
This reminds me of something a lawyer told me one time as I was being being prepared to testify in court: "never confuse the facts with the truth".

My other thought is that it seems to be human nature to think we know better than what the guy next to us says, and never has this been more true than in cars. Entire industries and billions of dollars are made catering to back yard mechanics that think they know more than the engineeers down at the car factory. What the heck, oil "additives" alone are a good example.
Snake oil, son, snake oil........

Bottom line is it's all about money. Folks who tow with smaller cheaper vehicles do so because they want to save more on purchase price and gas. I would bet you that 99% of the folks using under rated tow vehicles would go out and buy something bigger if they were to win some dough in the state lottery next week.

If I were to Crap in my own thread this pretty much sums up my thoughts too.

Show Me The Money!

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

No,not even close.

I figured there hadn't been...............