Please tell us your Motivation

[floyd]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

A couple of more thoughts: someone mentioned ( and I'm paraphrasing )that there are folks who have plenty of "facts" to show that it might be safe ( to tow over the limit ).
This reminds me of something a lawyer told me one time as I was being being prepared to testify in court: "never confuse the facts with the truth".

My other thought is that it seems to be human nature to think we know better than what the guy next to us says, and never has this been more true than in cars. Entire industries and billions of dollars are made catering to back yard mechanics that think they know more than the engineeers down at the car factory. What the heck, oil "additives" alone are a good example.
Snake oil, son, snake oil........

Bottom line is it's all about money. Folks who tow with smaller cheaper vehicles do so because they want to save more on purchase price and gas. I would bet you that 99% of the folks using under rated tow vehicles would go out and buy something bigger if they were to win some dough in the state lottery next week.

It is simply not factual or true that everyone secretly wants an oversized vehicle. The fact is that the fiberglass trailer's success is primarily predicated on on the fact that there is a whole segment of RVers who reject that notion.
Oversized vehicles are seen by many as a cause for overconfidence.In fact (truth be known) the larger the vehicle the more likely it will be used to tow beyond it's rating.
Driving down any interstate highway, at or below the speed limit, one needs only to wait a few minutes before he is passed by some overconfident driver with a clearly overloaded toyhauler, blowing by like he was being pursued by demons.
Honestly, which do you think is more stereotypically arrogant about driving skills and more dangerous on the highway...
1] The weekend "off-roader" in one ton quadcab towing his 37ft, 12000 pound toy hauler with a rear biased load at 80 MPH in slower traffic.
or...
2] The weekend "backpacker" in a little crossover SUV towing his 13ft, 1600 pound Scamp(100 pounds over the it's rating) at 60MPH to save fuel and the planet.

Good judgement is not limited to "ratings" and bad judgement is not eliminated by simple adherence.
So... which of us is "the guy next to us"??

[honda03842]

Reality

Reality always wins, it's not “if” but “when”.

If towing with a Honda CRV is wrong, it will become self evident. If it works that will also be evident. As far as I can tell most accidents are the result of speed, alcohol, improper loading, lack of attention, or ….

If I thought there was a chance of my towing with a Honda CRV was dangerous I would stop immediately. We have towed with the Honda CRV for 5 years without a single issue, towing more miles than most people on this site during that period. Fiberglass trailers are after all very small, well designed, easily towable trailers.

We have towed with our Honda to many places, many times where few have even been. The Honda has been stellar with no apparent wear issues, indicative that the drive train is adequate for the task. There have been no towing issues, crossing the Rockies many times and driving a 1000 miles of dirt roads where we never saw another RV.

As someone suggested, I am a gentle driver. We are in no rush. Many tow a 1000 miles in a two days, it's not us. Many drive at 70 mph, it's not us. Many rarely check their tires or lights, we check the tires every time we stop and our lights every morning we drive. I would be a gentle driver no matter what tow vehicle we owned.

It should be obvious that stepping out, trying something different is what allows progress. It is equally certain that being different can result in failure (and suspicion). I believe I've been successful with our Honda CRV. When I meet others and they ask about our tow vehicle, I see a combination of envy and lack of belief. Of course, in the big scheme of things, 5 years of towing is a small sample but not trivial. Here's a not so trivial case.

When I consider Can AM RV from afar they appear to be a successful business, 40 years selling RVs is certainly not the norm.

Assume Can AM outfits 250 customers a year, amounting to 10,000 customers (250*40) over their 40 business years, 10,000 is not a trivial number nor is 40 years. Businesses rarely survive that long unless they satisfy their customers.

Is it possible Can AM knows some things that others do not. Is it possible that they think outside of the box and have discovered something we all should know? Should we fear the actions of a Can Am or respect their ability to try a new way? Interestingly, Can AM goes out of there way to share their approache and experience. No matter one's towing strategy, one should thoroughly read their posts. New ways often fail but they are also the way we make all progress.

Reading about people's towing strategy is interesting to me and I hope to all. We should spend time learning from other's towing strategy, asking probing questions to learn, trying to understand successes and failures, and finally building a knowledge base from everyone's experience. There is no contest here.

Who is John Galt? Some will know and others not.... though I hope all know.

[Robin G]

Repeating the same thing over and over again, may justify it in some eyes but not in mine.


Please if your a newbie, consider that the information given may not work for you. Please follow your vehicles guidelines for towing..........


Cause believe me, if your in America, your not in Europe! And you nor anyone else know's if Euorpean guidelines work for our towing adventures here. There is no substatoooooot for common sense!



And the excuse that us who believe there is a correct way to tow, is because we have big truck idus, is a crock! I tow with a vehicle that just meets towing guidelines. Don't own a monster truck, and I have been towing longer than most.

My first towing experience was a Ski boat when I had my learners permit. (backing up a trailer came much later, because I grew up with and married back up masters who would rather back it up than take the time to teach me how to.
But going forward has always done with a vehicle that can handle what's being towed behind it.

[Carol H]

I suspect that some of the decisions folks make here in regards to what level of risks they are willing to take may also has a great deal to with "what do you have to lose" in the event of being found guilty under the laws of negligence.

It would be a pretty good bet that many of those in the middle age group and up probable have a higher level of personal assets in comparison to someone in their mid 20's to 30's. The middle age group & up is more likely to have their cars paid off in full, own their own home in full or have a fairly small mortgage compared to the value of the home or some may have their own businesses etc. It would make sense to me that the party with the greater amount of assets to lose is less likely to put it all on the line in order to save themselves a thousand dollars a year in gas.

Dangeroustrailers.org has a pretty simple question to ask yourself in regards to the laws of negligence.

I also suspect that another contributing fact that may be a part of the decision making process is that those in the middle age group and up are more likely to know first hand of someone who lost it all in a civil negligence case than someone in the younger age group. Don't think many would argue that life experiences do not pay a big part in our decision making process.

How many times have you sat around a dinner table with family and old friends and stories about things we did in our teens and twenties and in some cases well into our thirties are mentioned? Good bet someone at the table has a crazy "can you believe they did that?" story to tell about someone at the table that everyone has a really good laugh over. Often it will follow with I have a one up on that story to tell which generates more laughter. But its also a good bet that after all the stores are told and the laughing dies down that someone will say "Can you believe we really did that S**t, wouldn't it be great if we could go back and do it all over but with the knowledge we have today?" In my experience more often than not most at the table would agree that would be a good thing and sadly more often than not the tone will take a bit of a sad turn as someone points out that if that were possible so and so would be here with us tonight.

As I said its just a hunch as I haven't search for any scientific studies to back it up. :-)
But I do acknowledge that both of the above reasons do play a part in my personal decision not to tow over the manufactures specs - even though it may not be under by much.

[Steve L.]

My sense is that people advocating exceeding stated maximums don't really have facts, what they have is empirical evidence. They haven't had a problem so it must be okay. It's like saying it's safe to play Russian Roulette because they haven't yet died. I don't know how many chambers there are in their revolver but the bullets are named inexperience, weather, vehicle condition, some other idiot, their particular tow/trailer weights and probably others.

From their perspective it's all a conspiracy or hidden capacities or "the man" holding them back or making them buy something they don't want or they're all smarter than the rest of us who are sheepeople anyhow or they're letting us in on a secret… etc ad nauseum.

The problem some have is that their theory is being promoted to newbies. The very people who are least experienced to judge these opinions. I think their advice might be better tolerated if presented along the lines of "I don't necessarily recommend this to a novice but what I do is…."

Nothing will remove the risk of moving about except staying at home. Everyone must make the choice about how much risk they're prepared to accept in their life or impose on those that ride with them. If that person blindly accepts advice from someone they don't know, I'm afraid there's not much anyone else can do.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Steve L.

My sense is that people advocating exceeding stated maximums don't really have facts, what they have is empirical evidence. They haven't had a problem so it must be okay. It's like saying it's safe to play Russian Roulette because they haven't yet died. I don't know how many chambers there are in their revolver but the bullets are named inexperience, weather, vehicle condition, some other idiot, their particular tow/trailer weights and probably others.

From their perspective it's all a conspiracy or hidden capacities or "the man" holding them back or making them buy something they don't want or they're all smarter than the rest of us who are sheepeople anyhow or they're letting us in on a secret… etc ad nauseum.

The problem some have is that their theory is being promoted to newbies. The very people who are least experienced to judge these opinions. I think their advice might be better tolerated if presented along the lines of "I don't necessarily recommend this to a novice but what I do is…."

Nothing will remove the risk of moving about except staying at home. Everyone must make the choice about how much risk they're prepared to accept in their life or impose on those that ride with them. If that person blindly accepts advice from someone they don't know, I'm afraid there's not much anyone else can do.

Steve;
Ratings aside, when you turn the key... There's a bullet in every chamber!

[Robin G]

Very well said, Steve!

[honda03842]

Carol,

I'm sure you won't be surprised that ove the years I've gone to dangeroustrailers.org a number of times. More importantly I've read thru the cases to see what type of trailer was involved and what kind of tow vehicle. Mostly they seem to be non-travel trailers and mostly they seem to be towed by rated large tow vehicles. Certainly that deserves mentioning as well.

Accidents are awful to consider. Fortunately trailer accidents are comparitively rare and travel trailer accidents rarer yet. Alcohol and speed overwhelm this class of accidents yet we drink, drug and speed.....

As to newbies and my towing example, people need to make their own decisions and be prepared to live with the consequences... but make the decision from knowledgeask Galileo.

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Carol,

Mostly they seem to be non-travel trailers and mostly they seem to be towed by rated large tow vehicles. Certainly that deserves mentioning as well.

.

Not having read, Most examples from the link Carol provided. The link she did refer to is about a what you might consider a "large Tow vehicle" that was over it's tow capactiy! Now that deserves mentioning!

[RogerDat]

As I said before people do what works. Most try to tilt the odds in favor of success. I think the majority of the RV community does not use their vehicle just for towing so mpg and other factors for everyday use are a heavy influence on what they already have or purchase to tow with.

What I see is the real value in this discussion is not in "defending" our own positions but in sharing what does work and what did you do to tilt the odds in your favor if you pushed the limits. What model of CRV or Jetta is OK for what trailer? What kind of trailer brakes, did sway bars help? How heavy was your trailer? How did you load it? Was it a problem in mountains or hills?

Motivation is generally going to boil down to a choice, of my individual available options which is the option that looks best to me. The conflict is all about attacking or defending that choice. A choice that generally has so many individual factors it can not be debated well on a forum as a general topic.

It is worth noting that no one participating is saying they don't care about safety of themselves or others, or calling people names. They would just make a different choice because..... It's in this because that the reader can learn information which may be of use.

So if I was buying a vehicle what are my options, if I already have a vehicle what are sources that can help me decide how well it will work. All followed by YMMV

I am not happy going over rated capacity mostly due to liability, and having first hand knowledge of how much a transmission rebuild costs. If however someone offers me a super sweet take it with you now deal on a 4000# trailer my wife's escape is gonna get overloaded by 500# and I'm in for a slow drive home at off hours.

Risk is logically factored on 1). How bad is the outcome. 2). How likely is it to happen. 3). How much can I do to reduce 1 & 2.

#1 ranges from killing someone to vehicle damage to spoiled vacation. #2 is where most of the debate takes place (Europe vs US etc.) which has some value but #3 is where I think the real value of this thread lies.

I picked up my scamp with no working running lights at the rear, I ran the flashers which did work for the entire 30 mile drive home. My motivation? Get trailer home, I felt the increased possibility of causing an accident was mitigated by my use of flashers and the short exposure.

#1 did not change, but #3 reduced #2 to an acceptable limit for me. Which I think is what most of the people on the other side of this issue are saying. Acceptable limit is individual. I have heard no one advocate for the absence of a limit on acceptable risk or claiming that those limits don't apply to them because they are "too good" and thus immune to the laws of physics.

So I respect these other opinions. If my wife wanted to trade in the Ford Escape and was looking for a CRV (again, we had one in the 90's) I would be bugging Norm. Before going to the dealership.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Assume Can AM outfits 250 customers a year, amounting to 10,000 customers (250*40) over their 40 business years, 10,000 is not a trivial number nor is 40 years. Businesses rarely survive that long unless they satisfy their customers.

Is it possible Can AM knows some things that others do not.

LOL Norm IMHO I would suggest it is *Very* possible that CanAm knows something that you and I don't

Think about those numbers. Of the 10,000 customers CanAm has serviced over those 40 years, how many of them are still on the road? As you say CanAm is servicing 250 customers a year and according to a story here well over 400,000 RV's were sold in 2006 alone ( as the story is US based I am assuming that may be in the US only). Could the situation be that as they are servicing such a small % of RV's on the road that what ever they do to the tugs and trailers the odds are on their side that no matter how unhappy a customer may be with them its not going to make the front page of the big daily newspapers? so the average joe isnt going to know or hear about the unhappy customers?

I have to ask what do you have that suggests that Can Am's has never had a customer not found guilty of negligence as a result of their decisions to knowingly modify their tow or trailer to tow outside of the manufactures specs?

There have as I am sure your aware been a number of cases involving airlines where thousands of people use them ever year and are very happy customers and when they paid for their ticket they assumed they were flying in safe hands. Problems with the airlines track record in regards to safe maintenance practices or crewing practices often only comes to light when the airline actually crashes a plane killing a bunch a people. How many times have you heard people say guzzz I use to fly with them all the time and I never would have if I known that! or Why were prior concerns of the transportation safety board inspectors about the practices of that airline not given more press prior to this?

Is it not very possible that CanAm has a very clear waiver on the back of their work orders that will keep them from being named in a case of liability against one of their customers?

Not wishing to argue with you Norm, just asking so I can understand your position for assuming that they &/or their customers have never had any legal problems as a result of their services and that all their customers are happy campers.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Carol,........Mostly they seem to be non-travel trailers and mostly they seem to be towed by rated large tow vehicles. Certainly that deserves mentioning as well.

Originally Posted by Robin G

Not having read, Most examples from the link Carol provided. The link she did refer to is about a what you might consider a "large Tow vehicle" that was over it's tow capactiy!

Norm and Robin you both apparently failed to note (read) that I proved the link only in regards to the simple question to ask yourself in regards to legal liability. Not in regards to the content of the whole site.

I am sure you both noticed the question the lawyer suggests you ask yourself does not mention anything about the type or size of trailer being towed in regards to determining liability.

It is always interesting that three people can be given the same information to read and when asked to paraphrase what it said will give totally different responses.

So to allow others here to come away with their own ideas as to what it actually says or means here is the actually text:

"Towing beyond any vehicle's manufacturer's weight ratings-or without regard to the properly-equipped limitations a vehicle's manufacturer places on the towing vehicle-relates directly to the "Law of Negligence", and places you, the driver, bearing the full weight of liability issues.

"A plaintiff who was injured as a result of some negligent conduct on the part of a defendant is entitled to recover compensation for such injury from that defendant," quotes Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California.
"One test that is helpful in determining whether or not a person was negligent is to ask and answer the question whether or not, if a person of ordinary prudence had been in the same situation and possessed of the same knowledge, he or she would have foreseen or anticipated that someone might have been injured by or as a result of his or her action or inaction.

"If the answer to that question is 'yes,' and if the action or inaction reasonably could have been avoided, then not to avoid it would be negligence," warns Alexander. (For more about this subject go to San Jose Personal Injury Lawyer : San Francisco Injury Attorney : Alexander Hawes, LLP.) "

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Norm and Robin you both apparently failed to note (read) that I proved the link only in regards to the simple question to ask yourself in regards to legal liability. Not in regards to the content of the whole site.
"

No, Carol I saw and understood what you were refering to, it's just not been one of my arguement behind my reason not to tow inproperly! I only commented because as usual a referance was made that the incident occured with a Big truck, Yeah it did, one that was over tow cap. I got what you were trying to say.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Assume Can AM outfits 250 customers a year,

Im going to take a guesstamit and say that number is way to low. We got our Infiniti set up this time of the year back in 05 and there was a 3 to 4 week waiting list for hitch installs. They have many bays! Can Am got me in because there was a last minute cancel.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Carol H

LOL Norm IMHO I would suggest it is *Very* possible that CanAm knows something that you and I don't

I think Carol has stumbled on the key. The popular MacLean's magazine sums it up nicely......

"RV owners from all over the world seek the expertise of this trailer hitch guru"......

Getting hitched in London, Ont. - Arts - Macleans.ca

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by MC1

I think Carol has stumbled on the key. The popular MacLean's magazine sums it up nicely......

"RV owners from all over the world seek the expertise of this trailer hitch guru"......

Getting hitched in London, Ont. - Arts - Macleans.ca

MC! I am going to ask you the same question I asked Norm in post #171
On what are you basing your assumption that they &/or their customers have never had any legal problems as a result of their services and that all their customers are happy campers?

[honda03842]

No matter what kind of vehicle you choose to tow with I suggest that everyone interested in towing read the post #77 and post #78 by Andy Thomson of Can AM. It will answer many questions, describes the lack of Can Am customer problems and provides a lot of towing information we should all consider.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...id-3636-6.html

If you read these two short posts I am certain you will come away smarter than when you started. I am also certain that if you are in Ontario you will stop by Can AM RV.

As to liability, one should not live in fear but rather embrace knowledge. Fear often insures failure or minimally under achievement.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...id-3636-6.html

page not found!

[BCDave]

Giggle, grin: Page contains all collective wisdom pertaining to towing overweight and beyond capacity. Error 404: page not exist!

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by BCDave

Giggle, grin: Page contains all collective wisdom pertaining to towing overweight and beyond capacity. Error 404: page not exist!

Not pile on but: