PT Cruiser?

[honda03842]

I agree Glenn, the Dangerous Trailers web site is poorly done.

We often write about the legality of towing beyond ratings. It has nothing to do with the law. There is no law, that I know of in the USA that says what a vehicle can safely tow. There is no standard for tow vehicles. My hope is that if their is a practical standard, that all vehicles are tested to the standard rather than just selected vehicles that they want to sell as tow vehicles.

I would hope that all vehicles have a tow rating set by performance and capability.

[Bob Miller]

While there may not be a specific "Law" about what a vehicle can safely tow, there are tens of thousands of court cases where consumers were found liable for using everything from electric knifes to motor vehicles in a manner "Beyond the manufacturers intended use".

Ignoring existing manufacturers published towing specification may well be unsafe and can leave an owner open to liability lawsuits for doing so.

Lets not encourage others, especially those new to RV'ing, to do something that can lead to an accident resulting in a lawsuit, much less leading to an injury or possible death. Doing so is tantamount to aiding and abetting these possibilities.

When it comes to safety on the highway, thinking outside the box is not an option.

[RogerDat]

Towing capacity is a subject that many people have strong opinions on (as you may have noticed) What you have to bear in mind is that the further you push the limits the more responsibility you take on for doing so safely.

Many on this forum have 10's of thousands of miles of empirical evidence from their own travels that manufacturer limits can be safely exceeded given how they tow and how they configure the towing set up.

I watched some of the Winter Olympics, just because that person given a snow board, a steep hill and a bunch of pipes and chutes could do the run safely won't keep me from going splat shortly after I start down the hill.

There is another equally valid point of view with empirical evidence and sound arguments as to why one should not push things past the manufacturer guidelines. Things and systems tend to break or fail more often and easily when one pushes them close to or beyond limits.

Captain Kirk and Scotty never seemed to be all that happy or to be having a good time when they had their "I'm giving you all she's got" and "The engines won't take much more of this" dialogs. And as many times as they had those situations if it had been real life instead of TV one might expect one of those times to result in a huge anti-matter explosion with Enterprise destroyed.

If you are new to towing, and lack the experience and knowledge to make a sound decision then you are probably better off using sound judgment to avoid increasing your chance of having a bad experience.

One also has to consider pushing the towing vehicle to it's limits one incurs a price for increased repairs and poor performance as the trade off. Going over limit increases the potential cost of those trade offs and increases possibility that you will end up paying them. Power train, suspension, brakes and even frame take on extra work to tow.

It comes down to individual situations and using sound judgment when assessing your knowledge, skills and ability to implement a workable solution to the given situation that will determine if something will work well or be a disaster. You also have to accept responsibility for your decision and its consequences.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by honda03842

I would hope that all vehicles have a tow rating set by performance and capability.

Don't we wish that was true Norm.

A quick google search can give examples of vehicles with very high tow ratings that have poor performance towing trailers at 1/2 their tow rating.

On the other side of the coin you can review vehicles towing 5 or 6 times their tow rating resulting in premium overall performance and long term reliability.

So much depends on many contributing factors, best left to the pro's.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

I watched some of the Winter Olympics, just because that person given a snow board, a steep hill and a bunch of pipes and chutes could do the run safely won't keep me from going splat shortly after I start down the hill.

Well put RD.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Towing capacity is a subject that many people have strong opinions on (as you may have noticed) What you have to bear in mind is that the further you push the limits the more responsibility you take on for doing so safely.

Many on this forum have 10's of thousands of miles of empirical evidence from their own travels that manufacturer limits can be safely exceeded given how they tow and how they configure the towing set up.

I watched some of the Winter Olympics, just because that person given a snow board, a steep hill and a bunch of pipes and chutes could do the run safely won't keep me from going splat shortly after I start down the hill.

There is another equally valid point of view with empirical evidence and sound arguments as to why one should not push things past the manufacturer guidelines. Things and systems tend to break or fail more often and easily when one pushes them close to or beyond limits.

Captain Kirk and Scotty never seemed to be all that happy or to be having a good time when they had their "I'm giving you all she's got" and "The engines won't take much more of this" dialogs. And as many times as they had those situations if it had been real life instead of TV one might expect one of those times to result in a huge anti-matter explosion with Enterprise destroyed.

If you are new to towing, and lack the experience and knowledge to make a sound decision then you are probably better off using sound judgment to avoid increasing your chance of having a bad experience.

One also has to consider pushing the towing vehicle to it's limits one incurs a price for increased repairs and poor performance as the trade off. Going over limit increases the potential cost of those trade offs and increases possibility that you will end up paying them. Power train, suspension, brakes and even frame take on extra work to tow.

It comes down to individual situations and using sound judgment when assessing your knowledge, skills and ability to implement a workable solution to the given situation that will determine if something will work well or be a disaster. You also have to accept responsibility for your decision and its consequences.

Personally, I'm not about to give anyone else permission to use their unknown "sound judgment" skills and potentially place me and my family in danger.

Expanding the example given, when even Expert Olympic Snowboarders can and will crash, why take a chance and let the amateurs place your life at risk?

Fortunately the dogma of "Overweight towing is OK" is held by only a very small number of those on the board.

As oft stated, ten peeps doing the wrong thing, and getting away with it, doesn't make it any closer to being right.

[Mike Magee]

As far as I can tell, the PT only was rated for 1000 lb towing. I have read some claim (once upon a time) that some particular year model of PT Cruiser had a higher rating, but have not been able to confirm that fact (if anyone knows differently, please post a link to the info).

As mentioned previously, a 13' Boler will most likely be in excess of 1300 lb. as ready for camping.

If the limiting factor is the hitch attachment, the potential exists for a trailer to rip the hitch off at some point (with potentially disastrous consequences). If the limiter is the engine cooling, the main risk is not to safety but to the integrity of the drive train when it gets overheated. If it's the small brakes on the PT, one could get around that by having trailer brakes... but I'm not sure that most 13' Bolers have brakes. Nearly all of these factors could be compensated for (use trailer brakes, add more cooling, have a custom hitch receiver built) and the PT could be made into a safe, dependable tow vehicle; but it could get costly to add the needed mods, and the 'liability' naysayers would still advise against it.

When I was young, I towed a 13' egg 2000 miles with a '84 Omni 2.2L. Did disaster strike? No. Would I do it again today? No.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

......
When I was young, I towed a 13' egg 2000 miles with a '84 Omni 2.2L. Did disaster strike? No. Would I do it again today? No.

Can't ignore the white knuckle towing vs. comfortable towing factor. Having a good solid set up is simply more comfortable to drive. What is solid enough depends on the individual.

I don't figure I am enough of an expert to tell someone that has been doing something well for years that it's "wrong" and they "shouldn't" do it that way. Heck my say so doesn't carry that much weight with my wife on certain decisions.

I'm comfortable stating what I would consider and the decisions I would make. Trying to prove I'm right when the other person is totally free to ignore me seems pointless.

If you don't have the expertise and knowledge to figure out your own solution that works then recognize it and give yourself a good margin of error.

As Harry Callahan said "A mans got to know his limitations".

The OP asked can this TV handle this trailer the answer they want is not another argument on towing capacity. I wouldn't because there is too much gap between presumed 1000# towing capacity and trailer weight. Not worth the hassle and limitations of trying to do it in my opinion.

There may well be a member that would make modifications and do it, or even has done it.

If you want to fight about which is "right" you could just get married and do it in private rather than here.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Towing capacity is a subject that many people have strong opinions on

This post, (the compete version) should be saved, then pasted into every tow capacity argument that comes up. Good stuff.

[honda03842]

Roger,

As a former moderator, I know the moderators can become 'quick', like a good parent on the topic of towing.

For me the topic is very valuable as long as we stay away from personal attacks and express our opinion and experience.

We're quick to jump on the bandwagon of the manufacturer's tow rating, certainly a reasonable first order consideration. However, the tow rating should be tempered with the knowledge that rating alone is not enough. Many people driving rated vehicle have spun or dumped trailers.

Equally it is obvious that rating alone is not sufficient to insure repair free towing.

We spend a lot of time writing about manufacturer's rating and not nearly enough about the little parameters that add up to a good tow set up.

[deryk]

Seems the OP never responded back. I had a PT Cruiser years back....and it had a 1500lb tow capacity. ..my trailer weighed in around 700lbs and it was ok but I don't think it makes a great tv.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by honda03842

We spend a lot of time writing about manufacturer's rating and not nearly enough about the little parameters that add up to a good tow set up.

This gets my vote for one of the "most valuable statements of the year."

Thnxs for posting Norm.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by MC1

Don't we wish that was true Norm.

A quick google search can give examples of vehicles with very high tow ratings that have poor performance towing trailers at 1/2 their tow rating.

On the other side of the coin you can review vehicles towing 5 or 6 times their tow rating resulting in premium overall performance and long term reliability.

So much depends on many contributing factors, best left to the pro's.

You often state in your posts the term "PRO's" (See the above post) Could you please define or explain the term "PRO" and what qualifies one as a "PRO" Evidently the vehicle manufacturer or automotive engineers are not considered "Pro's by you > I am only asking out of curiosity and a desire to learn

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Roger,

As a former moderator, I know the moderators can become 'quick', like a good parent on the topic of towing.

For me the topic is very valuable as long as we stay away from personal attacks and express our opinion and experience.

We're quick to jump on the bandwagon of the manufacturer's tow rating, certainly a reasonable first order consideration. However, the tow rating should be tempered with the knowledge that rating alone is not enough. Many people driving rated vehicle have spun or dumped trailers.

Equally it is obvious that rating alone is not sufficient to insure repair free towing.

We spend a lot of time writing about manufacturer's rating and not nearly enough about the little parameters that add up to a good tow set up.

There's thousands of product liability laws suits every year. If you're towing beyond the manufacturers maximum rating you're the one liable, if you're towing withing the manufacturer's rating the manufacturer could the liable one.
I know you tow beyond the published limits, but you're will to take the risk and have an engineer's understanding of the dynamics of towing, which makes a huge difference. Those that barely know how to start a vehicle let alone have any understanding of physical science need to stay with the published maximums. Both you and I tow a lot slower than many people just to name one of the variables.
We need to keep in mind who our audience is and their minimum understanding and talk to that level so that we're all safe on the road.

[honda03842]

Byron,

I generally agree with what you say but...

No one should feel that purchasing a rated tow vehicle is enough. Unfortunately many beginners do not know what to ask nor do we often write about how to tow or even how to best setup a rated tow vehicle.

As to towing beyond the tow vehicle's rating, I have always felt safe towing with our CRV, have never had a mechanical failure other than a fan motor and have been all over North America.

We trade it in on Saturday and I will feel really sad when we give it up. We hope the Odyssey, rated to tow 3,500 lbs, will be nearly as reliable.

I get many private emails about our CRV and endeavor to explain the details of our towing, trying to transfer as much information as possible.

I recognize by observation that the owning of a rated tow vehicle or any tow vehicle guarantees little. For example, so often I see trailers and tow vehicles with well under inflated tires, people pulling out of campgrounds without checking their lights or trailer brakes.

We attended the Vintage Fiberglass Rally in PEI one summer. There were numerous Bolers there, some towed by small vehicles. My recollection is that Bolers have surge brakes, at least one I looked at closely did. As to the PT Cruiser I have no experience.

[honda03842]

I've been looking for information on the PT Cruiser and came across this comment by Andy T of Can-AM RV while writing about towing small Airstreams.

"We towed quite a lot with a 2005 PT Cruiser convertable with a 2.4 Litre Turbo, it was a lot of fun but it was never a fuel mizer. Engine technology has progressed a great deal since then."

Recognize the PT Cruiser was set up to tow.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Byron,

I generally agree with what you say but...

No one should feel that purchasing a rated tow vehicle is enough. Unfortunately many beginners do not know what to ask nor do we often write about how to tow or even how to best setup a rated tow vehicle.

As to towing beyond the tow vehicle's rating, I have always felt safe towing with our CRV, have never had a mechanical failure other than a fan motor and have been all over North America.

We trade it in on Saturday and I will feel really sad when we give it up. We hope the Odyssey, rated to tow 3,500 lbs, will be nearly as reliable.

I get many private emails about our CRV and endeavor to explain the details of our towing, trying to transfer as much information as possible.

I recognize by observation that the owning of a rated tow vehicle or any tow vehicle guarantees little. For example, so often I see trailers and tow vehicles with well under inflated tires, people pulling out of campgrounds without checking their lights or trailer brakes.

We attended the Vintage Fiberglass Rally in PEI one summer. There were numerous Bolers there, some towed by small vehicles. My recollection is that Bolers have surge brakes, at least one I looked at closely did. As to the PT Cruiser I have no experience.

Lots of people get away with a lot of unsafe towing practices. All I'm asking is be aware of your audience. There's people that brag about towing at 80+ mph and people that brag about towing well above the manufacturers maximum rating. Now combine the two and got a disaster in the making. Somebody will try it and more likely to try it if the practice in either case is promoted on the internet.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

You often state in your posts the term "PRO's" (See the above post) Could you please define or explain the term "PRO" and what qualifies one as a "PRO" Evidently the vehicle manufacturer or automotive engineers are not considered "Pro's by you > I am only asking out of curiosity and a desire to learn

Good questions Steve. All fair and reasonable and I would be happy to share my view on your questions.

What I mean by pro is a person, persons, or organization who is at the top of their game in the business that they are in. For example if I had a health issue my family doctor is a starting point for relief. If I wanted more refined or detailed info I would go to a specialist or a health care professional that was skilled in a particular field of medicine.

In the case here it has to do with tow vehicles, trailers, mechanics, design, custom parts manufacturing and installation. The pro's in this field are the best you will find. Folks that have a high end understanding of the fine art of towing. Folks that live, breath, and excel in that business.

One of my online pals on another forum tows his mid size trailer with a Volvo sedan. He has been all over North America with his rig and it works fine. To get the rig set up safely and correctly it did require a lot of expertise and specialized guidance, " by a pro". This is what I mean by pro's. These are probably not the average folks you find at your average RV sales lot. Anyway hope this answers your question.

[honda03842]

Byron,

I don't think we're far apart in our views.

I sometimes drive on Interstates and am regularly passed by people towing well beyond the legal speed limit, even beyond the speed limit for people not towing. Frequently they are towing popups on their small, rapidly rotating tires; as well they dash from lane to lane. Generally they are towing with towing rated vehicles.

Certainly speed is a problem, regardless of the tow vehicle. When we travel we rarely drive at night and never tow at night knowing the potential danger.

I always told our children to beware of the crazies and that more of them are out at night. In the USA, 1/3rd of fatalities involve a driver over the legal alcohol limit and now with marijuana legalization 11% of fatalities involve that drug, certain to increase with easy availability.

We have met a couple of people towing medium sized trailers with rated tow vehicles who have dumped them. Having a rated tow vehicle is no guarantee. There's much more to the safe towing equation than the tow vehicle.

[RogerDat]

Best predictor of towing safety or motor vehicle safety in general is to avoid having a loose nut behind the steering wheel. Unfortunately some of those nuts have drivers licenses.

Recently on the highway I dodged a ring of rubber that was rolling across the lanes off into the ditch. Saw a commercial truck pulling into the rest area just ahead and thought he must have lost a retread and is pulling over.

Three or so more miles down the road I find myself behind a flat bed dual axle trailer pulled by a large dual axle full size pickup. The back curb side corner of the trailer was so low it was dragging and throwing up sparks at every bump. Smoke was coming off of the curb side wheel well. Probably due to at least one tire being in the ditch behind us by a few miles and I'm betting that the remaining tire was pretty trashed.

I pulled up beside him and finally got him to look in his "other" mirror apparently the smoke was enough to get him to pull over.

TV was certainly not over capacity based on his speed and ability to drive on flats dragging one side and not even feel it. The load was decently secured. The trailer tires on the drivers side did not look like junk and had not failed despite the extra strain they were under.

What I have not mentioned was the load. Flat metal panels. Stacked at an angle bearing down on the side with the flat, and angled down in the back corner.

The reason I mention this incident is because the towing capacity and heavy duty trailer probably contributed to his ability to think he should haul that load because he could haul that load. And also insulated him from the deteriorating condition of his trailer. But the real problem was the driver was not paying attention. There is a saying in IT. You can't fix a people problem with technology.

Another 1.5 miles and the highway forked in a clover leaf, he would have to be going around a curved ramp with potential for total tire failure with possible catastrophic results.

The best predictor of safety or a good outcome in most endeavors is the mind of the person doing it. If you are not an experienced cook you are better off sticking to the recipe. If you are like my wife and really know how to cook you may be able to work out your own successful recipe. (one more analogy and I win a set of steak knives).

I don't think I would have any problems riding along with many of the people who have put thought and effort into pushing the limits. Because I am aware of the care they have taken to make it work. I would also feel comfortable riding with many of those who advocate for never exceeding the limits. Because I know that they put thought and effort into doing it right and carefully.

I really think the OP got good advice from people with clearly different perspectives on manufactures towing capacity:

• Consult the owners manual for towing capacity.
• Here are the real world trailer weights for the campers
• Exceed the towing capacity takes knowledge and care because it is a complicated endeavor.
• Don't exceed towing capacity if you lack the knowledge, skill or experience to do so in a responsible manner.
• Tow capacity in manual does not always line up with the real world experience of towing. May be overstated or understated.
• Your car will be taking on increased wear and tear.
• It can be stressful to drive when the TV is over capacity due to slower speeds, longer braking distances, and having to remain very vigilant.
• You are personally accountable to tow in safe and responsible manner.
• There are liability issues if you have an accident and being over rated towing capacity increases the chance you will be held responsible for the accident.
• People have strong opinions on the matter. Add it to religion, politics and ST vs. auto tires as topic that leads to arguments.

All true and useful information for the person new to towing from people with experience in the matter and with different perspectives on the subject.