RAV4 problems, need new TV

[Glenn Baglo]

Here's what I could find from Subaru site for 2015 Forester:

Trailer Hitch

Subaru hitches are engineered to the same rigorous standards as the rest of the Forester. Rated at 200 lbs. tongue weight, 1,500 lbs. towing capacity.
Also Available on: 2.5i Premium, 2.5i Limited, 2.5i Touring, 2.0XT Premium, 2.0XT Touring

[VicCT]

Thanks, all, weighing in.

Steve, I read about that case, and feel so badly for that poor guy. I know how it feels not to be believed when you are being blamed for something that you know you didn't cause.

Mike, there are about 105000 miles on my Rav. This issue did happen twice within a few months of me buying it last Spring. I had no idea at the time about all of this unanticipated acceleration stuff. I brought it to the dealership and they told me they couldn't find a problem but my transmission fluid needed changing, and maybe that would take care of it. After they changed the transmission fluid in August, it did not happen again until 10 days ago, on our way to the airport for a vacation. But the stories I have read online indicate that this is an intermittent problem for most people, not something that happens frequently. You just never know when it might spring up, though.

I can't afford a new car, and I would guess I will be looking at something in the 2010-2012 range. I will check tow capacity for any specific car I look at, thanks all for that input. I know on some it depends on engine size, model, and whether there is a specific tow package in place. It was like that with the Rav.

Daniel, would love a minivan but in the used market they are real expensive here, and especially the rare ones with AWD.

Carol, I would not buy a different model Toyota at this point. The trust is just not there. I could, maybe, be tempted to trade it in for another RAV of the same model so that I could use all my upgrades on the new car. I have new, expensive tires, a new roof rack, the hitch, and the brake controller all invested. The chance of another Rav having the same problem is probably statistically small. But, I don't think I am comfortable taking that chance. Would depend on how the dealer handles it, I think. I will consider the Mazda, though - - good call there. Volvos are out of my price range I think.

I ruled out Subies before I bought my Rav. I had three Subies in the past fail due to head gaskets. Loved the way they drove, that's why I kept subjecting myself to it, but I finally gave up on them. They came out with a new engine in the Outback in, I think, 2013, that would seem to hopefully solve this ongoing problem of theirs. But, they also inexplicably changed the roof rack in 2013 and it is now incompatible with long sea kayaks, and cannot be replaced with an OEM model without significant expense. The Forester just doesn't have enough tow capacity to make me comfortable. I don't like it to be close to my limit. So the Subies are out for me.

I have heard variable things about Grand Cherokee reliability. Anyone out there a long term Cherokee owner who can speak to this? I would also like to hear from GMC Terrain, Chevy Traverse and Ford Escape owners re: reliability, and what specific issues to look for or models to avoid in those cars when shopping, if people have that level of input to offer. For example, I think I have heard that Cherokees have issues with transmissions. Not sure if certain models avoid that problem. I will look at Consumer Reports but I know a lot of issues never make it into there. Will also check specific forums for those models, but I don't have lots of time before I will likely need to do something.

The ten year warranty on a Santa Fe sounds good to me right now. Glenn, how on earth was your friend held hostage for six months by a missing part? Would like to hear more about that.

And Glenn, thanks for keeping an open mind about this - - as a previously loyal Toyota owner, I would have a hard time believing it until it happened to me. This must be a relatively small percentage of Toyota owners experiencing this problem, or there would be far fewer on the roads. I would never encourage one to sell their car if they were not experiencing the problem. But I would suggest that people mentally prepare for what they would do in the situation of an unanticipated acceleration, because it happens suddenly, and can take you off guard. Switching to neutral seems to be the way to go.

Finally, this is not a floor mat issue. The floor mat recall was done on my car before I got it, and the mats lie very flat to the ground and do not bunch up at all. They were perfectly in place during all of these incidents, and are always perfectly in place -- they simply don't ever shift. I keep my car clean, and there is nothing rolling around on the floor on the driver side. This was not driver error. I think the fact that it has now happened to both of us while driving it, and that we are both very experienced, very good drivers with excellent driving records and no physical limitations, should help attest to that. I understand some people will be skeptical, I might have been, too. I will leave that part of the discussion at that, no sense repeatedly getting into it.

Thanks, all, for the help and input.

[honda03842]

Vicki,

We had a Honda CRV and towed 16 foot trailers all over North America for 7 years without a single drive line problem. We recently traded in our CRV after almost 250,000 miles for a Honda Odyssey, rated at 3500/350 pounds. It easily tows our Scamp 16, 2600/200 pounds.

The Odyssey is comfortable and huge, gets good mileage towing, and great mileage not towing. Reliability of the Odyssey is yet to be determined but we've owned a ton of Honda's and they've all been great.

We once had an early failure (though out of warranty) of the air conditioner on the CRV. We dropped Honda America a line and they replaced the entire AC system at no charge.

[VicCT]

Norm and Ginny, I would love an AWD Honda Odyssey, but it is simply not in my price range. I need the AWD here in the northeast, especially where we live in particular. I don't want to test the towing limits of the CRV, and the Pilot is simply bigger than I want, and also has a very high price on the used market around here. Love Hondas, loved my Element, but they don't seem to have a model that suits my needs unfortunately.

[floyd]

Buy a Ford Escape .
It's capable, comfortable, reliable, and affordable.

[Ice-breaker]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

...Personally, I don't want to replace my RAV4 with anything, and it's not because I love it. There is nothing out there that makes my heart beat enough to relieve the pain in my wallet.

Glenn, I think you need to consider buying a car that comes with a defibrillator.

[Jon in AZ]

Personally, I wouldn't write off the Pilot. Decent, low-mileage units can be had for under $25K, and almost everything needed to tow is standard (hitch, wiring harness, brake controller port, tranny cooler). You just have to buy a pigtail that runs from the wiring harness to the bumper and a brake controller unit. As to size, it is big, but a relatively short wheelbase makes it surprisingly maneuverable. The Chevy Traverse you mentioned, while a good choice, is even bigger. Just my opinion, sounds like you have already decided against.

If budget were my primary consideration I think I'd be looking at Ford Escapes and Hyundai Santa Fes, in both cases the old body styles with V6s. Recent major redesigns means they are fairly good values on the used market. I haven't checked reliability data on either, but a good friend has an Escape V6 2WD and has had good service from it, though not towing.

I'm truly sorry to hear about your issues with the RAV4, but I would do the same thing in your situation (dump it and move on). In the end it's only money. I would still carefully document everything that's happened and every communication with Toyota and send letters to Toyota of America and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. It should be documented, even if they won't acknowledge a problem now.

The biggest issue in my mind is the ethics of selling this vehicle. I'm surprised no one has raised the issue here yet. What does the FGRV community think?

[VicCT]

Thanks for the feedback re: Escapes. Will focus on those as well. Re: ethics of selling, I agree that is a serious issue. It is my hope that Toyota corporate will buy the car back from me if they can't fix it. I would never sell it to a private party. Worst case, i will trade it in to the dealership after fully documenting all issues in communications with them. I will also report it to the NTSB. My understanding is that Toyota corporate will be brought into the process by the dealership. But i will formalize communications with them as well.

I simply can't think of another way to proceed. I can't afford to junk the car and buy a new one. I don't have an extra $15,000 lying around. And if I fully document the issues and report it to the NTSB, and then trade it in to the same dealership doing the investigation, it is then their duty to deal with their product that they sold me in a legally and ethically sound manner. But I am curious what others think about that.

[francene]

Sorry for your troubles Vicki. I agree with Jack L that a letter to Toyota Corporate is in order.

Consumer Reports liked the Santa Fe. Don't know it's tow limits, though.

Good luck!
Fran

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

One does need to be specific as to model, year and .

Yup very true on pretty well all trucks and cars, thus the disclaimer at the bottom of my post as to other possible vehicles to consider:

"*Note tow caps are approx. may vary by year of vehicle and options."

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Jack L

I would write a letter to Toyota Corporate customer service and explain your problem and your safety concerns. I would send it registered mail and I would not be critical of the dealer or the way this has been handled so far. In a recent experience I had with a Toyota ', the dealer called Toyota and Toyota said "no" to a repair but a letter to Toyota from me got Toyota to agree to put new heavier springs on my Tacoma after Toyota turned the dealer down.

I would do as Jack has suggested - and include copies of all the paper work from the dealer as to what they have done to date on the car to fix the problem. I also had a situation come up with Nissan a few weeks ago where the dealer said Sorry you will have to pay for the repair the truck has been off warranty by 4 months. A letter directly to Nissan's head office changed that situation around very quickly.

[Bob Miller]

To be upfront, you should have been writing to the NTSB from the first issue and every occurrence after that. That's the primary way that action is taken against auto manufacturers.


And you wrote: "And if I fully document the issues and report it to the NTSB, and then trade it in to the same dealership doing the investigation, it is then their duty to deal with their product that they sold me in a legally and ethically sound manner."(Bold Italics added)


And, somewhat tongue in cheek, I ask where you found a dealer with that attribute? We shopped about 5-6 Toyota dealers for a Tacoma about a year ago and couldn't find one like that!


Being worth about the same, here is my $.02 worth for a TV solution that works for us:
2003 Chev Blazer 2 dr. Up to 5800 lbs. towing capacity, reliable & proven drivetrain, fair MPG's, comfortable and looks really good.


In 2013 sold my former TV, a near perfect, 2003 4 cylinder Sonoma w/150k for $5000, and bought this one used w/50k miles, and full service records, for $7500. 100k fewer miles, V6 and a huge upgrade for $2500 more. And did I mention, the 2 dr Blazer (or GMC Jimmy) really looks good.
As the 2dr is seldom seen, here's that they look like:
P1010990_zps676b7bc6.jpg Photo by advocateone | Photobucket

[Bobby Kirk]

Vicki,
My Silverado did the same darn thing. Scared the heck out of me.
There was a recall for a carburetor part and that seemed to have solved it. Scary ,when you are sitting at a light and you have to push on the brake with all you might not to run into the car ahead !!! I shut the truck off , then it wouldn't start, had to have it towed in to the dealer.
Bobby

[VicCT]

Hey Bobby, thanks for sharing your story. It is truly scary to have this happen.

Have been doing lots of research this evening. Eliminated the Ford Escape and Hyundai Santa Fe due to crash test issues. The three I seem to keep coming back to now are the GMC Terrain (surprisingly good crash test and reliability ratings, and 3500# towing capacity), Nissan Murano and Honda Pilot. I re-looked at the Pilot on Jon's suggestion, and it is only slightly more expensive than a similarly equipped Murano. Although I had written it off as too big, the mpg seems to be about the same as the Murano and Terrain, which have much less cargo capacity. I am actually concerned that the Murano and Terrain don't have enough space for what we travel with when we bring our kayaks (lots of gear), plus all our camping gear - - they both have lower cargo capacity than my Rav.

It seems kinda silly for little old me to be tooling around to work every day in a giant Honda Pilot by myself. But it might make sense.

And Bob, just so you know, I didn't knowingly fail to report this issue to the NTSB. When it happened over the summer, I didn't know it was an "unintended acceleration" issue. When I heard about those on the news years ago, I always though they were issues people had at high speeds on the highway, not sitting at a stop light. So when it happened back in August and I brought it to the dealer and they said they couldn't find anything, but it could be the tranny fluid, I had no reason to disagree or to think it was part of some other, hugely litigated issue. Then it didn't happen again until 10 days ago on our way to the airport for a vacation. We just got home late Sunday night, and now I am getting it checked out ASAP. I will send the report from the dealership to the NTSB as soon as I have it. Not trying to hide anything here. Just trying to solve a problem.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Carol H

A few of others to consider while your car shopping and if you happen to see one used on the lot are:

Toyota Venza the V6 has a tow cap of 3500lbs. A friend pulls an older Escape 17 if one and is very happy with it.

Toyota Highlander - some have a 5000lbs tow cap. Lots of folks here pulling with these. .....

Um, after the problems they're having with the Rav, I really doubt they would consider any Toyota models.

[TomK]

Vicki, I think you have the patience of a saint. I would be far more upset about your problem. I remember when that problem surfaced, and just assumed Toyota must have a handle on it by now. For the record, I totally believe you. There have been too many cases for Toyota to dismiss it by insulting their customer base and blaming them for the problem. I've owned a Honda Civic and an Accord, and had nothing but good luck with them. You sound like a nice, reasonable person, and I wish you well.

Tom

[Glenn Baglo]

Here you go TomK. From the New York Times.

"In a sharp escalation of penalties against automakers that skirt safety laws, the nation’s top auto safety agency has fined Honda Motor a record $70 million for grossly underreporting fatal accidents and injuries to the government, regulators said on Thursday."

And I believe the cases you are referencing are different Vicki's issue, and have been admitted by Toyota.

[Bob Miller]

Quote from Post #34 " Not trying to hide anything here. Just trying to solve a problem."


No I hope I wasn't suggesting that. I thought that it had happened more times than you explained.


But the "Transmission Fluid" causing it? You might ask exactly how that could possibly have caused the engine to speed up, sounds pretty far fetched to moi. aka "The Brush Off".


FWIW: With that answer I would have been on the phone to Toyota corporate safety in a CT Minute.

[Glenn Baglo]

For five years I've been trying to get Toyota to explain why they say they don't recommend a weight distribution hitch.
So, all I can say, is good luck with that.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

Um, after the problems they're having with the Rav, I really doubt they would consider any Toyota models.

Yup I kind of thought of that as well, which is why i throw out a few other makes/modes others had not mentioned yet as possibilities to explore.