Scion Xb as a Tow Vehicle

[MC1]

Our 2nd vehicle is a 16 year old Nissan Quest mini van. It is getting long on the tooth and we are looking to replace it.

Looking at Scion Xb's. They do everything quite well. Fun to drive, roomy, great fuel economy, and very reliable. The vehicle has as much power as the V6 Quest but the Xb is 1,000lbs lighter so seems peppier.

I see on the Scion forums the guys have had good luck towing with them. Thinking they many be fine for an egg if we should ever decide to get into one. Will have to do some research.

[Terry G]

Well, I think you could tow a small teardrop (maybe 600 to 800 pounds) with an xB but I would strongly suggest that you never tow anything much bigger. The combination of a light car, weak engine (in some models), and short wheelbase is a recipe for disaster.

[Bob Miller]

According to several web pages on the 2013 Scion, the maximum towing limit is listed as NR i.e Towing Not Recommended.

Because "Several Guys" claim to have had good luck towing with them tells you more about the sources, those that think that they are smarter than all the engineers in the world, and can ignore the manufacturers recommendation, than it tells you about the real towing ability.

In many. many years I have seldom seen anyone ever admit that towing out of specification caused any problems, those personalities are just to macho to admit their mistakes and quietly change their ways, saying nothing about any problems encountered.

In short...it looks like the Scion is a non-starter in the towing world

[honda03842]

I know nothing about towing with a Scion XB but we now have two in the family and they've interested me because they are available with a manual transmission and are made by Toyota.

Their wheel base is similar to our Honda, within 1% and the distance from the ball to the rear axle looks a less, (the right direction).

They are about 400 lbs lighter than the Honda.

Their torque and horsepower are similar to my 2004 Honda.

As to the macho towers, I hope it's not me because my Honda has not had a single drive train problem in 200,000 miles. Our only replacements outside of tires, brake pads, fan belt, one battery has been a thermostat and a fan.

I would also suggest that we been as many places as most anyone on the site preparing for our 6th loop of the USA.

Reality is not macho.

[MC1]

Norm, some good observations that I spotted too.

The dynamics look good with this vehicle. The 2.4 in other Toyota vehicles do have tow ratings and I suspect the marketing folks at Scion got lazy with this vehicle and just didn't bother with it.

Instead the spent their time setting up a performance line if accessories like 19" wheels and tires. Bigger disk brake and caliper kits and lowering spring kits. The good news is that this is quite a performance based vehicle that was designed to "go" beyond the basic base vehicle.

One article I read was the fact the addition of 19" wheels and tires really improve handling performance.

The base weight is 3,000lbs just 300lbs lighter than our G35. Looks like payload is 900lbs.

TRD performance parts....http://www.scion.ca/scion/en/accessories/trd

[Bob Miller]

Just as there are peeps out there that smoke and live to be 100, I don't use those exceptions to the rule as a recommndation to ignore current medical advice on that topic.

While some major dimensions and driveline specifications may be similar to other models, actual suspension components and unit construction design limitations may well be the reason for the NR rating. Now, if someone is an expert on that part of the Scion Xb let us know all about it and also explain where that 300 lbs went to if not a result of lighter gauge materials and construction. BTW: A plus in the MPG race.

And to suggest that Toyota was to lazy to do something that could be related to safety suggests a lack of understanding of Toyotas thinking. This very day a major court case opens dealing with the issue of sticky accelerators pedals etc. The same day that yet another safety recall for Toyota Tacoma's was issued.

Lighter weight and racing (looking) tires may well improve performance, but it does little to make it a better tow vehicle.

Yes, they may be very conservative in their towing thinking, but then again so should those of us that want to stay outside of that last box in which many get to reside.

Exceptions do not disprove the rule.....

[MC1]

Bob, you made some comments. Thnxs.

In the end before I would tow anything with something like the Scion I would have the whole idea/hardware/setup/mechanics/etc gone over and evaluated by someone or an organization that are experts in the field of towing, and set up vehicles for towing. Safety of course is a priority.

Performance parts and design actually make for a better TV. For example, better brakes are better than poor brakes.

[Mike Magee]

My daughter has had an XB for about 4 years now. She likes it. I think it is rather anemic at acceleration and not very comfortable riding.

The thing I would pay attention to is the hitch attachment, making sure it won't fatigue and come off.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MC1

The base weight is 3,000lbs just 300lbs lighter than our G35. Looks like payload is 900lbs.

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

While some major dimensions and driveline specifications may be similar to other models, actual suspension components and unit construction design limitations may well be the reason for the NR rating. Now, if someone is an expert on that part of the Scion Xb let us know all about it and also explain where that 300 lbs went to if not a result of lighter gauge materials and construction.

Bob, are you seriously suggesting that a 10% difference in weight between two completely different vehicles of radically different configuration indicates that the lighter one must be flimsy? The difference in engine weight alone between the Scion xB's 2.4L 4-cylinder and the Infiniti G35's 3.5L V-6 could account for most of that difference.

I don't make any assumption of towing capacity based on the the vehicle's weight; I think the point was just that the xB is not really a small car.

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

And to suggest that Toyota was to lazy to do something that could be related to safety suggests a lack of understanding of Toyotas thinking. This very day a major court case opens dealing with the issue of sticky accelerators pedals etc. The same day that yet another safety recall for Toyota Tacoma's was issued.

Not bothering to do the extensive testing required to justify a towing rating as per SAE J2807 and rating the vehicle "not recommended" for towing is exactly the kind of conservative thing that Toyota does due to their awareness of safety and liability issues. They are not ignoring safety by skipping the tow rating; they are recognizing the importance to safety and reliability of not encouraging people to tow too much.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Terry G

The combination of a light car, weak engine (in some models), and short wheelbase is a recipe for disaster.

Sure, but light and short compared to what? Compared to F-350 pickup, yes, but compared to the many tall wagons (called "SUV", "CUV", "crossover" or whatever) maybe not, as Norm mentioned.

What's "weak" about Toyota's 2.4L (2AZ-FE) engine?

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

What's "weak" about Toyota's 2.4L (2AZ-FE) engine?

Yes, the engine has lots of power and the tranny has selectable shifting.

Also found out the final drive is 4:31. Great for towing.

xB final drive swap - Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site

[Terry G]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

What's "weak" about Toyota's 2.4L (2AZ-FE) engine?

Since MC1 didn't mention they were buying a new car in their original post, I wasn't sure what model they were referring to. When the car was introduced in 2003, it was rather underpowered with a 1.5 L engine. I owned one but sold it to buy an Escape when I bought my Casita. The 2.4 L is probably fine although I sure like having a 6 cylinder. I apologize for the confusion.

But some people seem rather convinced that they've found the perfect car to tow an egg, even though the manufacturer advices otherwise. And that does concern me. I would not want to be in your shoes if you have to take your xB into the dealer for some warranty repair on the drive train with a towing hitch on the the back. But to each his own.

[Ed Harris]

All I can add is that Norm I will never think of you as Macho!

And remember,you asked!

Ed

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Terry G

Since MC1 didn't mention they were buying a new car in their original post, I wasn't sure what model they were referring to. When the car was introduced in 2003, it was rather underpowered with a 1.5 L engine. I owned one but sold it to buy an Escape when I bought my Casita. The 2.4 L is probably fine although I sure like having a 6 cylinder. I apologize for the confusion.

But some people seem rather convinced that they've found the perfect car to tow an egg, even though the manufacturer advices otherwise. And that does concern me. I would not want to be in your shoes if you have to take your xB into the dealer for some warranty repair on the drive train with a towing hitch on the the back. But to each his own.

Yes, we are looking at new ones with the 2.4//auto.

For the past 15 years we have been towing with two different vehicles, a Nissan Quest and now the G35. Both Imports and never had a drive train issue with either. Same with Norm.... High mileage and no drivetrain issues.

I once asked Mr. Thomson about the same subject. Even though he has set up 1,000's of vehicles he commented that none of his customers (to his knowledge) has had warranty work declined because there was a Can Am hitch/receiver installed.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

The thing I would pay attention to is the hitch attachment, making sure it won't fatigue and come off.

I had a look underneath the back end of the Xb. There is a big open space under there. I don't think much of the typical bolt on hitch/platforms. I believe Can AM could easily build and install a custom. That is the route I would go if we went for this vehicles. Their designs are just so much more substantial.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Terry G

Since MC1 didn't mention they were buying a new car in their original post, I wasn't sure what model they were referring to. When the car was introduced in 2003, it was rather underpowered with a 1.5 L engine...
I apologize for the confusion.

No problem - I was also making an assumption, based on the original post's power and weight remarks, that this was the substantially larger second generation.

Originally Posted by MC1

Yes, we are looking at new ones with the 2.4//auto..

My assumption turns out to be correct, but I should have confirmed rather than assuming.

Like some other models from various companies, there are substantial differences between generations so no evaluation is valid without appropriate context. The Toyota RAV4 is an example which has come up before in FiberglassRV discussions.

[Mike Magee]

Yes, that place would be my choice too, if I were doing something similar. I think they know how to fabricate excellent receivers.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MC1

I don't think much of the typical bolt on hitch/platforms. I believe Can AM could easily build and install a custom. That is the route I would go if we went for this vehicles. Their designs are just so much more substantial.

On the other hand, the available hitches for the xB bolt into six points in the structure prepared by Toyota specifically for that purpose. I have no problems with this mounting, but I don't think much of ad hoc welding to the floor structure.

If a hitch bolted to those six points is used within its rated capacity (3500 pounds), I don't see a purpose for more structure. Of course, if you tow 7000 pounds and apply massive WD forces, you'll need more structure...

[honda03842]

Two of our relatives have Scion XBs, both Gen 2's, both manual transmissions, and one with 80,000 miles since 2009. Neither have had any issues. As well neither tows but it was an oppoertunity to crawl underneat and check out the hitch mounting points.

Six point mounting and all with welded-in (?) threaded inserts. It looked relatively substantial.

The distance from the ball to axle appears to be 2/3rds of our Honda CRV. As well the seating volume was greater than our CRV, not by meaurement but certainly by feel.

It's engine compartment seemed less crowded and better considered than our CRV.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Six point mounting and all with welded-in (?) threaded inserts. It looked relatively substantial.

The installation instructions for commonly available hitches show mounting points which are bolts into "existing weldnuts" - yes, that means they are nuts welded into the vehicle structure at the factory.

The first second-generation xB hitch I checked had only four mounting bolts, but was only a Class 1 hitch; I checked again and I see that a Class 2 hitch using six bolts is available.