So many bad setups

[sokhapkin]

Originally Posted by steelypip

By comparison, towing my 16 foot egg is just about painless. I tend to forget it's back there other than the combination length when I pull in for fuel and the inevitable aerodynamic drag.

I always disagree with this kind of sayings. Riding in the TV NEVER feels the same when it is alone or when towing. There is a BIG difference in the feeling.

I tow Scamp 16 with F150. I FEEL that I tow the trailer.

[Bob Miller]

I'm with you Sergey. To may peeps think that they are doing good when they brag that the "Don't even know it's back there". That leads to them forgetting that it's back there, aka an accident looking for a place to happen.


More than once, after being passed, I have been cut off by a trailer being towed by someone that forgot it was back there.... Proof that they forgot it was back there, or they chose to ignore that little fact..... they are typically driving 65-70 mph and the speed limit for towed trailers is 55mph in California

[sarahspins]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

To may peeps think that they are doing good when they brag that the "Don't even know it's back there". That leads to them forgetting that it's back there, aka an accident looking for a place to happen.

Agreed - I'm also becoming more and more convinced that the VAST majority of people towing incorrectly are just complete idiots and don't care.

My husband unfortunately is one of these... he couldn't tell me the tongue weight of his utility trailer, or even the ACTUAL tow rating of his specific truck (I got a "well most F250's can handle" type answer and tried to convince me that the tongue weight limit was the same as the towing capacity and I just shook my head and walked away). He tows his utility trailer with a receiver that is too high (trailer is not even close to level), and when I questioned that, he basically said "well it works fine, I don't see any reason to change it".

He laughs at me for having 3 different receivers for my own car (to get my hitch at different heights - I'm covered 16-20" now) and putting brakes on my 13' scamp, but I can say without ANY hesitation that he will never ever be towing my scamp anywhere.

[Bob Miller]

WOW... now there's a disconnect, I just hope that the safety chains hold!


If not, I can tell you my tongue weight in a NY minute, and would you be interested in living in sunny California???? LOLOLOL

[MC1]

Originally Posted by sarahspins

Agreed - I'm also becoming more and more convinced that the VAST majority of people towing incorrectly are just complete idiots and don't care.

He laughs at me for having 3 different receivers for my own car (to get my hitch at different heights - I'm covered 16-20" now) and putting brakes on my 13' scamp, but I can say without ANY hesitation that he will never ever be towing my scamp anywhere.

Sara, you seem to be in the know when it comes to this towing stuff.

Impressive!

[redbarron55]

I wonder about the trends in cars trucks and SUVs.
Trucks and SUVs keep getting taller and the suspension are more and more adjusted to give plush rides for the luxury vehicles they have become.
All of these things reduce the stability of the systems as evidenced by the increased rollover accident rates. This higher Center of Gravity along with unsophisticated rear suspensions means that with the roll center at the ground and the CG up high the roll coupling between the TV and trailer is impaired compared to passenger cars.
These raised trucks and SUVs on tall tires (usually under-inflated) are accidents waiting on the proper conditions to happen.
I see this type of vehicle often on my daily commute inexplicably in the ditches on the side of the road. This is without trailers attached and NO combination handles better with a trailer than without.
As one of the contrarians on the forum I think that often the newer passenger cars with IRS and very much better suspension, often with Sports suspensions handle better both with and without a trailer as long as the weights are in line with good practice of less than 85% of the TV.
Since I have the small molded trailer for the lightweight and low drag for the reason that an excessively large TV is not necessary.
As far as not being able to tell the trailer is back there I don't know if I can't tell, what with the thing filling the center rearview mirror and having the extensions clamped on the side mirrors, that it is there from any poor handling of my VW.
My new VW that I am setting up for towing has the European trailer module to activate the trailer mode on the car electronics to adjust the T-ESP, engine fueling map, cooling programming, DSG shifting profile, etc. (the Ford Escape does the same if the entire kit with electronics is added This changes the rating from about 2000 lbs to 3500 lbs.) The Westfalie OEM hitch fits where the VW engineers intended to transfer the loads to the unit body chassis.
The VW also is getting the Tekonsha P3 brake controller and Air Lift 1000 air springs to level the car with a load.
The old VW did really good without all of the bells and whistles so this one should be the cat's pajamas.
Personally I think that VW's reticence to rate their cars in the US is partially driven by the lack of support from their already pretty poor dealer network and the lack of the North American trailer electronic module packages. It has bee a real PITA to get the proper operation of the turn/brake lights for US spec trailers. It would have been easier to rewire the Scamp for the 13 pin Euro specification!
My expectation is that this new VW Sportwagen will do a much better job of towing than the old one with 250,000 miles. 25 mpg is nice too.
I don't recommend anyone else follow my example because as an engineer I am willing to form my own informed opinion and deal with the issues. My Insurance company has no problems with it either.

[RogerDat]

I don't really "feel" towing the 13 ft. Scamp behind a V6 Ford Escape. Have to be careful or my speed will creep up simply because the trailer is well under the tow capacity and power of the vehicle but....

When I brake I can sure tell I have something behind me pushing. Been a few times I wanted to name the trailer Satan. As in get thee behind me Satan, and stop pushing!

One thing to bear in mind closer to limits more critical each component of "good" towing set up becomes. WDH not really required for a small FGRV behind a large truck or SUV. Becomes more important as the proper tongue weight gets closer to overload the rear suspension.

Nose up I know from experience is awful. Tongue weight being exact? Did find out on a camper because it is a fairly consistent load, won't on the utility trailer. I already know that fully loaded with crushed rock trailer is still under towing and trailer capacity. Generally just load 2/3 forward of axle 1/3 rearward or something approaching that distribution. Then if it handles ok leave it that way. Have had a couple of loads of building material I shifted around after hitting the road to improve weight distribution.

The most critical component to safe towing is the vehicle operator. Equipment can't compensate for lack of knowledge or care. Can't do it right if not willing to find out what "right" is. If nothing else "right" makes a good base line so you have a way to measure how far out on the wild side you are.

[David Tilston]

I tow with a GMC Savana 1500 van with a raised fibreglass roof. I need a van because I have lots of kids. My Trillium 4500 barely affects gas consumption, since it is in the wind shadow of the van.
The trailer has brakes, and I tend to adjust them kinda high. I can feel the trailer pulling the van when I hit the brakes. If the tongue weight is too light, I can feel the trailer pulling up on the hitch, when I hit a bump.

My point being, if I can feel that little trailer with a big van, then how is it possible for someone to not feel a trailer when towing with a car?

[MC1]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Have to be careful or my speed will creep up

We have the same issue Roger. The speed drifts upwards. Many times I set the cruise on to keep the speed at 100kph.

Originally Posted by RogerDat

When I brake I can sure tell I have something behind me pushing.

Our brakes are set up like David's. They engage slightly ahead of the car brakes so the pushing action is not there. The trailer is actually to a slight degree holding/pulling the car back. Stopping is no more of an event with the trailer than the car solo. This brake set up also resists the rig from jack knifing in an aggressive braking event.

We are fortunate to have large brakes for the trailer size and weight. Note that we have the same trailer brakes as some trailers twice our weight. That is a huge cushion.

Originally Posted by David Tilston

My point being, if I can feel that little trailer with a big van, then how is it possible for someone to not feel a trailer when towing with a car?

Performance vehicles have the right stuff. Sticky low profile tires, rigid unibodies, taunt suspension, low center of gravity, precise steering etc that all come together to make for a great TV. Of course the connection system needs to be right and that is where you need someone who knows what they are doing to get it right/safe.

[Alf S.]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

I hear you loud and clear. The sad thing on many of the towable units is that all it would take on the receiver hitch is a rise or drop stinger. Then there's the large pickup trucks towing off the bumper instead of having a receiver hitch installed. Finally, the recreationist who wants what I call the full experience. Stuff strapped on the front, back, top (a la a questionable rack) and rear of the towed unit, and they still have loose stuff in the pickup box. State DOTs don't have any problem writing truck drivers a ticket for infractions as minor as bugs in the air horn, but they let this stuff go on continually which is much more dangerous to the rest of us on the road. It's sad when it's refreshing to see a properly set up rig as the exception rather than the norm.
Well that's my rant for the day, I hope.
Dave

Hi: Iowa Dave... My highway horror was on I94 east bound. Two guys in a flatbed stake truck with a flat steel ramp on the back. It was fastened down ok... but sticking out over the sides and wayyy over the rear end. The nose of the truck was bouncing and the wheelies were about 10-12"
off the pavement. I slowed and they bounced on by unconcerned as all get out.
For perfect towing of a tandem axle trailer...it should be level!!!
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie

[David Tilston]

The only time having our trailer brakes set up so high became a problem was going down hill into Osoyoos, BC. We were approaching from the east. That hill is very steep. The P3 brake controller has an inertia sensor that interprets a down hill like heavy braking. The trailer locked up. Not really a problem, I just temporarily turned down the trailer brakes.

[sarahspins]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

Personally I think that VW's reticence to rate their cars in the US is partially driven by the lack of support from their already pretty poor dealer network and the lack of the North American trailer electronic module packages.

I think it's really more about marketability, why would they sell you a smaller car with great gas mileage that is more than capable of towing a small trailer if they could convince you that you absolutely need something "bigger" and more expensive to do it safely?

FWIW I drive a sportwagen and I spent a long time considering all of the available options, in the end I went with a Torklift Central hitch because I didn't want to effectively be "stuck" at a fixed ball height, or with a 50mm ball, and with the torklift hitch I get a 2" receiver tube so I can use whatever standard ball mount suits my needs. I also decided not to worry about the euro wiring because it just didn't seem like it would be worth the extra expense in the end - the enhancements seemed very very subtle to me for the $400 price tag. Of course I'm driving a MT and not the DSG, so you may have extra considerations in play... I'm honestly pretty clueless about the DSG aside from knowing you just can't tow with it on a TDi, but IIRC yours is gas.

I don't however fall into the camp that believe that when fitting the original OEM hitch/wiring my sportwagen can magically exceed it's US tow rating. My car is rated for 2000lbs and I don't ever anticipate going over that with my scamp - but it's also why I have a 13 and not a 16 (I have been looking for a 16, but it won't be towed by my car).

[redbarron55]

Actually MY JSW is a DSG TDI and it tows my 16' Scamp beautifully.
The DSG work quite well and the TDI has great torque and I liked it enough that when the first one was due to be filtered down to me from my wife we bought her a 2013 JSW TDI with the DSG,
I spent the $430 on the Westfalia towbar and electric kit so that eh T-ESP would work when it detected the trailer.
I am on of those engineers who believes that European measures of mass can be converted into US units without being discounted.

[RogerDat]

I should mention trailer has brakes (since axle replacement) but current TV does not yet have a controller. So zero trailer braking is why I'm getting pushed. I would have expected less push considering the weight of the TV vs. the trailer weight. At least based on having towed a utility trailer that weighed more.

Might just be how I drive with camper vs. utility trailer. I tend to be going slow and not terribly long distances with the utility trailer. Might weigh 500 - 800 lbs. more but not generally driving for several hours at highway speeds either. Tend to be light footed with all that weight in the utility. Get used to the camper so more "surprised" when it doesn't want to stop.

[redbarron55]

Roger,
I am getting ready to pull the hubs and braked (7") we talked about. Have you measured your axles yet?

[MC1]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

I should mention trailer has brakes (since axle replacement) but current TV does not yet have a controller. So zero trailer braking is why I'm getting pushed.

That explains it Roger and know the feeling.

We towed a brake less 2,000lb Coleman Rio Grande with our Nissan Van through the Rockies etc. We got by but no doubt our stopping distances were longer with the trailer in tow. Having the 23' with brakes is so much better and would never go back to a trailer without them unless it was a very light trailer.