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Old 09-14-2011, 12:14 PM   #61
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by CallDon View Post
In California, if you are driving and three vehicles pass you on the right, you get a ticket for obstructing traffic. It's the law. There are other laws but that one comes to mind.

Yesterday, on our eight lane expressway 4X4, I was one of five cars forced to pass (on the right) a slower moving white auto driving in the left lane. And there was a line still behind that car when I drove on.

D*
My comment assumes if you're driving at the speed limit, or below, and the traffic flow is moving faster than you, you're in the right lane. It would seem contradictory to give someone a ticket for 'not' breaking the law - going faster than the posted limit. I'd like to see that one prosecuted. In an increasing number of jurisdictions trucks are required to have speed limits programmed into the engine computers that can be checked at scales. The drivers can't change these in most instances. What's safe and prudent to some is considered inconsiderate to others.
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:39 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Bochoff View Post
It would seem contradictory to give someone a ticket for 'not' breaking the law - going faster than the posted limit. I'd like to see that one prosecuted.
Obstructing traffic IS breaking the law.

Speeding is breaking the law.

I suppose it is up to the officer to decide which is more dangerous at the time. The point is to keep traffic flowing safely. In the context of the traffic flowing safely together, even if faster than the speed limit, that is not as unsafe as one person obstructing traffic in that situation, causing people, often multiple cars, to change lanes to go around them. That is as dangerous as speeding in this context.

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Old 09-14-2011, 10:49 PM   #64
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Example:

Last night, around 9:30, i was traveling on a 4-lane, divided, limited access highway, like an interstate. Fairly busy traffic out of the city, moving along around 60-65 mph. Speed limit is 60 but most folks drive 65 or 70 on that highway. I was in the right lane with many cars. We were all moving along so there was plenty of room between cars, no tailgating. In my rear--view mirror I saw the lights of a police car pretty far back. Traffic moving smoothly.

It took the police car 15-20 seconds to get up to where I was. The police car was en route and driving in the left lane. Everyone was moving over to the right lane as he approached. I slowed down some as most of the cars did. But the traffic was moving and he had a clear lane, the left lane. So siren, just the lights.

Suddenly I looked up and the idiot car in front of me had almost stopped in the highway, dropped speed suddenly to around 40 mph. He didn't pull over to the side as he shouold, he just put on his brakes and slowed down in front of me.

I was not driving close to him, but I had to slam on my brakes to keep from rear-ending that IDIOT who STOPPED in the middle of the highway.

If a cop is coming, the point is to let them pass. If you have to pull over, pull over to the side. But don't stop on an interstate highway in the middle of the lane and cause a line of cars to slam on their brakes to keep from hitting you from the rear!!!

What a damn fool that guy was!! The accident would have been HIS fault for stopping without reason and causing a multi-car pile-up.

See what i mean about slower traffic causing collisions??

D*
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Old 09-15-2011, 05:37 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallDon
Example:

Last night, around 9:30, i was traveling on a 4-lane, divided, limited access highway, like an interstate. Fairly busy traffic out of the city, moving along around 60-65 mph. Speed limit is 60 but most folks drive 65 or 70 on that highway. I was in the right lane with many cars. We were all moving along so there was plenty of room between cars, no tailgating. In my rear--view mirror I saw the lights of a police car pretty far back. Traffic moving smoothly.

It took the police car 15-20 seconds to get up to where I was. The police car was en route and driving in the left lane. Everyone was moving over to the right lane as he approached. I slowed down some as most of the cars did. But the traffic was moving and he had a clear lane, the left lane. So siren, just the lights.

Suddenly I looked up and the idiot car in front of me had almost stopped in the highway, dropped speed suddenly to around 40 mph. He didn't pull over to the side as he shouold, he just put on his brakes and slowed down in front of me.

I was not driving close to him, but I had to slam on my brakes to keep from rear-ending that IDIOT who STOPPED in the middle of the highway.

If a cop is coming, the point is to let them pass. If you have to pull over, pull over to the side. But don't stop on an interstate highway in the middle of the lane and cause a line of cars to slam on their brakes to keep from hitting you from the rear!!!

What a damn fool that guy was!! The accident would have been HIS fault for stopping without reason and causing a multi-car pile-up.

See what i mean about slower traffic causing collisions??

D*
Don, I certainly agree in that situation, and have witnessed the same thing MANY times. I don't know who it is that is teaching people to SLAM on their brakes when they see a police car, ambulance, or firetruck.... But I wish they'd use some common sense and just move over to let them by.

The main thing that concerns me is that it isn't always amgood idea to go with the flow when you are towing a trailer. It's all good until something like your story above happens. Other cars can slam on their brakes and swerve, but someone with a trailer in tow may not be able to react as quickly or as safely... Especially if they are already at or beyond the limits of their tires.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:31 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by CallDon View Post
Obstructing traffic IS breaking the law.

Speeding is breaking the law.

I suppose it is up to the officer to decide which is more dangerous at the time. The point is to keep traffic flowing safely. In the context of the traffic flowing safely together, even if faster than the speed limit, that is not as unsafe as one person obstructing traffic in that situation, causing people, often multiple cars, to change lanes to go around them. That is as dangerous as speeding in this context.

D*
There is no way the state would want a conviction of such a ticket in court. It would nullify the posted speed limit laws and open the state to liabilities from speed related accidents. No officer can force you to break the law and drive faster than the posted limit.
After 35 years in the trucking business I have seen just about everything. (Well, I still get surprised on occasion....). It's fair to say that most RV drivers pull trailers just a few times each year. (inexperienced). Many of the tow vehicles are great for their primary use but may not be ideal for towing the trailers hooked to them. I have seen too many rigs tearing down the highway with the trailer flapping around behind them and I've seen many accidents. "Judge, my client used to drive at the speed limit but he got a ticket for driving too slow and obstructing traffic. I think the state should be responsible for the personal and property loss..." Not gonna happen.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:05 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Bochoff View Post
There is no way the state would want a conviction of such a ticket in court. It would nullify the posted speed limit laws and open the state to liabilities from speed related accidents. No officer can force you to break the law and drive faster than the posted limit.
Take your argument up with the state of California. It's their law!!

The point is not to break the law. If you are driving in the left lane and forcing the traffic flow to go around you on the right, forcing the traffic flow to pass you on the right, that is an obstruction of traffic. Nobody is forcing you to drive faster than the posted speed limit. Just get out of the way, move to the right where slower traffic is supposed to drive. What's the problem with that??

Ya know, in every single class of lawbreakers I had, people would argue about the law, but few even knew who their state representatives were who passed those very laws.

D*
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:45 AM   #68
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Post #62 "My comment assumes if you're driving at the speed limit, or below, and the traffic flow is moving faster than you, you're in the right lane."

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallDon View Post
Take your argument up with the state of California. It's their law!!

The point is not to break the law. If you are driving in the left lane and forcing the traffic flow to go around you on the right, forcing the traffic flow to pass you on the right, that is an obstruction of traffic. Nobody is forcing you to drive faster than the posted speed limit. Just get out of the way, move to the right where slower traffic is supposed to drive. What's the problem with that??

Ya know, in every single class of lawbreakers I had, people would argue about the law, but few even knew who their state representatives were who passed those very laws.

D*
My earlier post, which you may have missed, certainly doesn't condone driving in the left lane and obstructing traffic but rather assumes driving in the right lane at the speed limit. If I'm driving in the right lane, at the speed limit, I won't be convicted of obstructing traffic. That doesn't mean a jealous officer might not issue a ticket. As a trained safety officer, you probably don't condone having an inexperienced tow vehicle operator driving above the speed limit and thereby creating a greater risk of an accident. Clearly I'm not going to convince you to change your speeding ways and you aren't going to convince me to speed above the posted limit. Enough said.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:57 AM   #69
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They have been known to do zero tolerance days around me 5 km over and a ticket. In short go over and they can make your life less fun that day. Like the trailer sticker with max 55 mph on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Bochoff View Post
A very interesting discussion on driving styles. When driving on a multilane highway, without my Trillium, I set the cruise control at the speed limit. I stay to the right and, yes, I am regularly passed like I'm standing still. I don't consider driving at the speed limit irresponsible. I have encountered many speed traps where multiple police cars are situated in dips in the highway picking off speeders and rotating back to their original position when the tickets are written. I understand an increasing number of jurisdictions are relying on traffic fines to compliment their tax base... and that makes sense. If you increase local taxes you upset the locals. If you write speeding fines for transients passing through it's easy money.
When towing my Trillium, 55-60 mph works for me. If traffic becomes heavy it's usually a good time to pull into a rest stop for a nap or cup of coffee; I don't enjoy towing in heavy traffic any more than those drivers around me wanted to pass. In my 'pre egg' days, I too would get annoyed by 'slow driving' RV's. Yes, I passed them. If I was involved in an accident during one of these passes I would have blamed the $#@! RV. But... I would have been at fault both logically and legally. The posted speed 'limit' is the legal maximum. I have seen lots of examples of drivers being fined for exceeding the posted limit. I am not aware of any drivers being ticketed for driving 5-10 mph under the maximum for 'obstructing' traffic. (It may have happened but certainly the number, if any, would be a mere fraction of those ticketed for speeding)
Also interesting is the likely hood that no ones driving habits will be changed by this discussion.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:07 PM   #70
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P.S. Other drivers will be unable to see around me safely on two lanes in most cases as the boler is 8' wide! Yet have been passed on a solid line and they need time to pass! These people will always be on the road until they get a ride in the special vehicle that will not be taking them home; just hope others do not suffer from their habits.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:13 PM   #71
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Has anyone ever met anyone that would admit to being a bad driver? I know I haven't. So that must mean everyone is a safe, courteous and conscious driver.....

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Old 09-15-2011, 08:38 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDave View Post
Apparently it is quite common for the 4-way flashers to trigger the trailer brakes every time the tug's brake lights come on. It gives the exact same effect as if you stepped on the brake pedal - the rear brake lights circuit is powered up, sending a signal to the brake controller. If the controller has an 'aggressive" setting - for example like one would set it when towing something big & heavy, then the controller starts the sequence of applying trailer brakes.

Since I always have my setting such that my stopping distance is essentially the same towing as it is when "running bobtailed", I guess I must be using "an aggressive" setting. (What's the use of having trailer brakes if you still have a huge stopping distance?)

On the e-trailer site they have a little gizmo (essentially a blocking diode with a mounting bracket) designed specifically to deal with this (somewhat common) problem.
Thanks this is valuable info will check it out!
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:27 PM   #73
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Cool Speed

Just did a little calculation:

MPH --- FPS
50 ------ 73
55 ------ 81
60 ------ 88
65 ------ 95
70 -----103
75 -----110
80 -----117

Just select the speed you like to travel at in the left column, multiply the second column by your reaction time in seconds, and you will have the distance you travel BEFORE you even apply the brakes.

Now take the time in seconds it takes you to stop after applying your brakes, divide by two, multiply that by the right hand column, and add the result to the first calculation and you will have the total distance you will travel before coming to a complete stop.

I travel in the right lane at the truck speed limit. Might as well, SOMEONE has to do it, the trucks certainly don't! This means the actual limit, usually about 2-3 mph above indicated on the speedo. I like the interstates because people can get around. Secondary roads I find I accumulate a train which I let pass at the first opportunity.

I feel that the biggest problem is persons following too closely. I have someone on my rear bumper, pull over for them, and watch them hurry to get close to the person ahead of me. I think that a lot of people just have a bad habit of tailgating. However, consider this, of course you will overtake someone driving slower than you and those driving faster will overtake you! It is just logical.

Things happen faster and happen more severely at higher speeds.

For those who like statistics:

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:35 PM   #74
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Cool Speed

How did i get duplicate posts?
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:44 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDave View Post
Apparently it is quite common for the 4-way flashers to trigger the trailer brakes every time the tug's brake lights come on. It gives the exact same effect as if you stepped on the brake pedal - the rear brake lights circuit is powered up, sending a signal to the brake controller. If the controller has an 'aggressive" setting - for example like one would set it when towing something big & heavy, then the controller starts the sequence of applying trailer brakes.

Since I always have my setting such that my stopping distance is essentially the same towing as it is when "running bobtailed", I guess I must be using "an aggressive" setting. (What's the use of having trailer brakes if you still have a huge stopping distance?)

On the e-trailer site they have a little gizmo (essentially a blocking diode with a mounting bracket) designed specifically to deal with this (somewhat common) problem.
I can't really speak to just how common it is for the 4-ways to trigger the brakes since I have never even seen a car or truck in which it was possible. In fact on single light systems it is common for the circuitry to deactivate the 4-ways when the brakes are activated, when separate turnsignals are used, you can usually activate the brakes with the 4-ways on.
The electric brake controller receives it's signal from the activation of the brake pedal switch, while the 4-ways receive their signal from the column wiring harness, essentially through the turn signal circuitry. If your trailer brakes are activated by a turnsignal, or fourways...You've got wiring problems!
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:57 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Bochoff View Post
My comment assumes if you're driving at the speed limit, or below, and the traffic flow is moving faster than you, you're in the right lane. It would seem contradictory to give someone a ticket for 'not' breaking the law - going faster than the posted limit. I'd like to see that one prosecuted. In an increasing number of jurisdictions trucks are required to have speed limits programmed into the engine computers that can be checked at scales. The drivers can't change these in most instances. What's safe and prudent to some is considered inconsiderate to others.
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The mistake in your comment is in saying...
"It would seem contradictory to give someone a ticket for 'not' breaking the law"
In Illannoy, if you are driving in the left lane at the speed limit and you have traffic stacking up behind you, you are in fact breaking the law.

As my mom used to say..."Two wrongs don't make a right"
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:26 PM   #77
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4 ways

I have literally never yet seen a vehicle where the 4-ways did NOT trigger the trailer brakes. Every one I have ever towed with (and there have been quite a few!), plus every one belonging to friends (including several new trucks that have factory pre-wired harnesses) all do it.

I therefore assumed that "this is how it is" and never thought about it further until someone on here said something about putting on their 4-ways when driving slowly - which caused me to say "you can do that?"

My way to check that my plug is inserted correctly is to turn on my 4-ways and try to pull the trailer.

Of the vehicles in my driveway that have controllers in them at present (a '76 LeMans, a 1980 Chev pickup, my '92 GMC and my '97 4Runner) (I am not including my '57 Chev here, because while it has a controller, it does not have 4-ways) all apply trailer brakes with the 4 ways. All have controllers professionally installed at various shops ranging from the car dealers, to an RV dealer/service shop to a professional hitch installer. The tugs belonging to friends also all have had their controllers installed at various shops. (and several are of a type that have the factory pre-wired "plug & play" harness for simplified installation as did the leased 2008 Dodge disease-el Ram 2500 that I was stuck with for a year)

The issue is that, no matter where you get the power from under the dash, it has the same effect of flashing the BRAKE lights - hence the brake light circuit is live, hence the trailer brakes apply when the brake lights come on. With all of them, applying the brakes while 4-ways are active simply leaves the brake lights on full time, and hitting a turn signal while the 4-ways are on has no effect as all 4 continue to flash.

The only place I can think of for getting power to the brakes sans any 4-ways effect might be to tap into the wire that powers the high-mounted "third brake light" - and only one of my tugs (the 4Runner) has that 3rd light!




Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd View Post
I can't really speak to just how common it is for the 4-ways to trigger the brakes since I have never even seen a car or truck in which it was possible. In fact on single light systems it is common for the circuitry to deactivate the 4-ways when the brakes are activated, when separate turnsignals are used, you can usually activate the brakes with the 4-ways on.
The electric brake controller receives it's signal from the activation of the brake pedal switch, while the Fourways receive their signal from the column wiring harness, essentially through the turn signal circuitry. If your trailer brakes are activated by a turnsignal, or fourways...You've got wiring problems!
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:39 PM   #78
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My '09 GMC with HD tow package has two separate feeds for trailer brake power one for controller power and one for the brakes that have to be dug out of the harness under the hood and connected to the fuse box aux power lugs. I know this because I installed my controller and the 4 ways do not activate it. The 4 ways will only activate the brakes if signal is taken after the flasher on the light circuit instead of from the break pedal switch unless the vehicle is wired with the flasher befor the brake switch. A simple fix would be to mount a second brake switch with it's own sourrce of power to signal the controller. Or the 4 way pulse could be caused because the brakes are getting their power from the lighting circuit and should be powered on it's own. A separate feed to the controller from the battery and from the controller to the trailer harness. Fused of course mine uses a 30amp
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:04 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDave View Post
I have literally never yet seen a vehicle where the 4-ways did NOT trigger the trailer brakes. Every one I have ever towed with (and there have been quite a few!), plus every one belonging to friends (including several new trucks that have factory pre-wired harnesses) all do it.

I therefore assumed that "this is how it is" and never thought about it further until someone on here said something about putting on their 4-ways when driving slowly - which caused me to say "you can do that?"

My way to check that my plug is inserted correctly is to turn on my 4-ways and try to pull the trailer.

Of the vehicles in my driveway that have controllers in them at present (a '76 LeMans, a 1980 Chev pickup, my '92 GMC and my '97 4Runner) (I am not including my '57 Chev here, because while it has a controller, it does not have 4-ways) all apply trailer brakes with the 4 ways. All have controllers professionally installed at various shops ranging from the car dealers, to an RV dealer/service shop to a professional hitch installer. The tugs belonging to friends also all have had their controllers installed at various shops. (and several are of a type that have the factory pre-wired "plug & play" harness for simplified installation as did the leased 2008 Dodge disease-el Ram 2500 that I was stuck with for a year)

The issue is that, no matter where you get the power from under the dash, it has the same effect of flashing the BRAKE lights - hence the brake light circuit is live, hence the trailer brakes apply when the brake lights come on. With all of them, applying the brakes while 4-ways are active simply leaves the brake lights on full time, and hitting a turn signal while the 4-ways are on has no effect as all 4 continue to flash.

The only place I can think of for getting power to the brakes sans any 4-ways effect might be to tap into the wire that powers the high-mounted "third brake light" - and only one of my tugs (the 4Runner) has that 3rd light!
I'll respectfully stand by my statement above and if you are ever in Illannoy you are welcome to come and check both of my TVs, One with separate turn signals and one without.
Mine are professionally installed as well, by me.
Do your trailer brakes fire when you use a turn signal? 4-ways are essentially the firing of both turn signals at once., used to be usually through a separate flasher.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:30 PM   #80
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Quote:
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I'll respectfully stand by my statement above and if you are ever in Illannoy you are welcome to come and check both of my TVs, One with separate turn signals and one without.
Mine are professionally installed as well, by me.
Do your trailer brakes fire when you use a turn signal? 4-ways are essentially the firing of both turn signals at once., used to be usually through a separate flasher.

I'm not disputing that it seems like I have an issue to be addressed.

No, a turn sig does not apply the brakes, but the 4-ways certainly do!

What I am saying is that it seems that EVERY tug I have seen has the same issue. If they all need fixing, so be it. Until I came across it on here, I was not aware that this was an issue at all - I thought that "this is how it works!" (esp given the ones with a "plug 'n' play" wiring harness installed at the factory)

I have since gone back to 3 different installers (including a Camping World) and all of them said that my '92 is wired correctly and "that's how they all workl"

Yes it is CERTAINLY possible that I keep finding installers who should not be trusted. (most shouldn't be anyway! )

So I dragged out the book that came with my new Prodigy 3. I checked the wiring diagrams and crawled under my dash. Yes, I am tapped into the correct wire, according to the wire colour ("color" for US readers)

I have no doubt that many tugs can use 4-ways sans trailer brakes applying, but in my experience the problem is far more common than not - after all - how many folks ever put the 4-ways on unless they are already stopped? It is not something I had ever done either, except to check my trailer brakes in the driveway. When I am forced to go slow on a steep uphill, I put my right-side turn sig on - not the 4ways, so again, it just never arose as an issue for me (until I saw a note on this thread about putting on the 4-ways when going slowly, causing me to ask how this is possible). Since I never use my 4-ways when in motion anyway, I may not even bother to "fix it".

I asked my trailer-towing friends about it as well - they never knew that it could work any other way, either, and none of them ever considered it to be 'wrong' or any sort of problem - that's just how they work!

One even said that "that's another reason why I like surge brakes instead of electric ones " as he, too, had never once encountered a tug where the 4-ways could be used sans the trailer brakes applying.


On a completely separate (but strange) issue, yesterday I was doing a favour ("favor" to our US readers) for a friend and moving her Trillium to her winter storage space for her. (her tug was in the shop for warranty service) She had removed the (inside a cabinet) battery. Every time I hit a bump, the Trill's brakes applied. Seems that the loose battery cables were hitting each other and shorting together, causing my charging circuit breaker to trip and somehow applying the trailer brakes - HARD!

I can understand how that would result in a dead short in my charging circuit, (tripping my breaker) but as to the brake application - No ideas on THAT one.
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