Sprinter Vans

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

I had a thought today... buy an old gasser, drive it into Mexico to a shop with inexpensive labor, have a diesel engine installed, drive it back. I wonder if it would be at all practical?

Possible... yes. However, there are usually MANY other things that need to be changed. Wiring harness, electronics, transmission, instrument cluster, etc. I know people who have done it, and it was an open checkbook project. I think it cost him around $30,000 to convert a VW Passat to a V6 turbodiesel with all wheel drive. He did it for the fun of it.

[Wayne Hill]

2yax2go:Josie
First off 2yax2go, we are there now. It's great.

I have a neighbour who regularily tows a loaded 8 x 12 single axle trailer with his full sized, stand up, fully camperized Sprinter with the smaller motor. He says it is OK, as you mentioned it just chugs along with decent mileage. By the way - A strong praire wind can be just as hard on a vehicle as any mountain grade, maybe even harder, if you are fighting it all day.
His biggest concern to date is finding a Dodge/Chysler dealer that can service/repair it properly and not just change parts to remedy the problem. He actually drives 1 1/2 hrs each way just to go to a dealership that deals with the Sprinters. This dealership has a mechanic that is interested in these machines and keeps up on them and their problems.
A local Dodge/Chrysler dealership recommended it to him.

Question for you:
Why a diesel?
I want a diesel also but sat down with a diesel expert, told him what I wanted to do with it and he told me reasons why not to get one.

Generally, diesels are a lot more expensive to buy and to repair. Oil changes cost more. You are dealing with turbos, lift pumps, injectors, all sorts of filters, bigger batteries, getting good fuel is sometimes a problem.
Repairs on a diesel can break your budget very easily. Not every dealer can service or repair them. Parts may or may not be readily available.
You can remedy some of the trouble prone spots before they happen,but it costs $.
What is the break point on the cost effectiveness on the diesel vs gas debate? Lots of information concerning that on the internet.

If you are looking for used (cheaper?)Sprinter, who knows what they have been used for - how many hours they sat idling, etc. I suspect that gently used Sprinters are few and far between and they will command top $.

Have you gone to any of the Sprinter sites and read the comments concerning the performance and some issues affecting them?

"Is a Sprinter overkill for a 16 footer? Who knows?" We all do. If we have the space, we will fill it.

"At any rate, there's a Sprinter dealer the next town over and we intend in the very near future to go kick a few tires and drag a salesman on his most unexpected test drive ever."
I'd suggest that before you do that, you read whatever you can get your hands on concerning the 5 cylinder. Then you can ask him knowledgeable questions. I'll bet that he will do the old soft shoe shuffle. Don't get talked into the 6 cylinder diesel Sprinter, from what I've read, they get poor mileage and not much better performance.


Wayne

[mcbrew]

Not sure what you are referring to. They have never sold the 4 cylinder Sprinter in the US. The previous model (like mine) was only ever brought over with a 2.7L 5 cylinder common rail turbodiesel. The current model has either a V6 gas engine or a V6 turbodiesel. These are "high performance" engines mainly used for the US market and are not commonly found in Sprinter vans overseas. I know that they offered a 2.3L gas engine in some countries as a budget option in the previous model, but never in the US. The 2.2L turbodiesel was also never sold here.

[2yax2go]

Wayne....if you're saying you're on the road full-time now...congrats. We've become so excited about this new adventure that I'd quit the stay-put life yesterday if all the ducks were in their place. Soon.

You bring up some very valid points about diesels. We hadn't gotten quite that far in our analysis and appreciate your input in that arena. Possible repair costs are always something to factor in the research. What I know about working on cars would fit on the front side of a single sheet of paper. The Mister is a mite more handy, but neither of us is a whiz.

I, too, was going to say that I didn't think they offered anything other than 5's stateside as that is all I have seen adverted here. Me'n'the Mister have become pretty tough shoppers in our time together and tend to have more faith in fellow shoppers/users than the salesman. We rather get a private kick out of listening to their spiel. The worst was the guy who reflected all his chatter to the Handyman when he was told up front I was the buyer. He had something I was interested in that day, but missed out on the sale. We are both quite contented now with the Vibe we bought from the guy who listened.

We are a couple of years out on this and have time. We'll prolly end up with a gasser in the mean as we will need something more reliable than the workhorse S-10 4 x 4 beater in the drive right now. She's been a good one, but she's seen hard use as an off-road, Scout gear, home & garden hauling, road warrior in her life here at Casa de Chaos. She'll be OK for flatter hauls, but we're not keen on her having her tug Li'l Scamp up I-26 at Saluda Mt.(6% for three miles with two four degree curves), it's cousin Green River Gorge (7% for less than a mile with several four degree curves) or the Nantahala National Forest mtn. roads this summer.

We're not dead set on diesel...it's an option we're considering for the longevity of the vehicle and better mpg than average. So, we may just pick a price point and see what pops up to drive in the interim.

Thank you all so much for your input.

(aside to Mike...that's an interesting thought. When I lived in SoCal as a teen guys went down to TJ all the time for smooth, cheap tuck and roll upholstery jobs. SC is VERY far from that southern border plus my son's US Marshall friend recommends a keep away given the current challenges)

[Wayne Hill]

All,
Whoops. 4 and the 5 are right next to each other and I didn't proof it all that carefully. Sorry.

2ya2go We are housebound but retired (at last) and are looking for a trailer so enable us to travel more economically and to allow us to stop when and where we choose.

Once I saw my neighbours Sprinter and confirmed his mileage, I got really interestedin the Sprinters. That idea was toast when I finally found out for myself what was available out there - used - in these vehicles.

As time goes on, I have no doubt they will be cheaper. What I am seeing now is that the contractors have discovered these thrifty machines and are buying and using them in place of their traditional service vans.

My neighbour is quite pleased with his Sprinter and he and his wife tell me that it is a pleasure to travel in. He reports that it's no V8 but once it gets up to speed it maintains it easily. I've no experience with them at all.

Wayne

[Ed Harris]

I agree that the way to go is to some Sprinter Forum just like this one and learn all you can before really jumping in.
I have a few friends who bought theirs new and that sparked my interest way back and so I began learning about them and searched for a few years for the right one.

The service availibility is tough for sure. Most dealers do not have a lot of experience with them and overall it seems the Freightliner dealers are the best equipped for them in general.

I have a Russian mechanic here in STL that has experience and mechanics with experience as they learned to work on them over seas and without that resource I doubt I would have pulled the trigger.

I also purchased a dealer diagnostic tool and software made just for Sprinters so that I can really see for myself what the vehicle is doing should problems arise.
This is likely beyond what most would do to help have a good experience with a vehicle but I look at these things as just another tool,which I can not resist.

There are something like 13 computers in the T1N Sprinter talking on 3 networks to male the vehicle do what it does and whatever this says I am told the new models have triple that number of computers on board.

The newer ones are a lot more complicated,pricey and get worse mileage to boot.
I also don't think they are as reliable and maintenance is higher too.

Over all a Sprinter is not something you should just jump into lightly probably but I could not be happier with the one I found.

[Ed Harris]

Here are a few shots
I love the ones with the "Smart" car.
And the T@B is a whole other story!

[Greg H]

Those are the baby Sprinters that replaced the Dodge vans, as far as service yes any Freightliner dealer should be able to work on them, they were sold as Freightliner, Mercedes Benz And Dodge.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by Wayne Hill

What is the break point on the cost effectiveness on the diesel vs gas debate?

I notice that many North Americans when talking about economics of diesels only look at purchase cost and running cost.

Here in Britain we were about the last Europeans to take up using diesels in a big way and we used to do the same. But the resale value of diesels really needs to be included - now that we are used to them, diesel-engined models are worth a lot more second-hand than petrol(gas)-engined ones here - usually the depreciation (in $ not %) is less for diesels despite their higher initial price, so they are cheaper to own and cheaper to run. Servicing costs are higher, but only like the cost of a tankful a year or so.

The preference for diesels increases as vehicles get older- because the buyers are getting poorer and so they value the fuel economy more. In fact people will pay over the odds for old diesels in order to save the fuel cost - a cousin and his wife runs things like 5-year old Mercedes with large gas engines because almost no-one wants them so they are ridiculously cheap (like less than half the value of a diesel model) and the extra fuel doesn't cost that much.

[2yax2go]

Typos....I've made a few...only to be discovered AFTER hitting submit. sigh.

Good points, Andrew. Same seems to be true for our little fibreglas eggs as well.

Freightliner has a shop about 30 miles from here where they take the importated deconstructed cargo Sprinters and build them back with the kits sent with them. (thereby getting around that little chicken tax thingy) They would probably be good (though expensive) for local repairs, but won't help out on the road, of course. I don't want to have to take a diesel mechanic course to hit the road, yanno?

Saw a baby Sprinter passenger model on the way home yesterday...sort of Midnight Blue and not altogether so awfully ugly. Must be something wrong with my eyes.

A used car lot/repair shop has grown up on the corner of the entrance to my little podunk digs....a rather roughly used big Sprinter with plumber's rack on top sits under the skeleton of the maple in the middle of the lot. It needza good home... but not mine.

The upside to the Sprinters being discovered by tradesman is that there will be more on the road, more mechanics needed, more parts available, etc which could possibly bring down the prices. The future might be brighter for finding something roadworthy. Or not.

[Wayne Hill]

2yax2go,
Just happened to talk to my neighbour concerning his 5 cyl, full sized camperized, loaded Sprinter When I say full sized I mean its as big a Sprinter as I've seen with lots of space to haul stuff or fill with junk.

He tells me that he has towed a hybrid Toyota car on a 2 whl car dolly from Winnipeg Manitoba Canada to Kansas City Kansas? and back thru the mountains, prairie winds, spring and fall weather conditions etc and is quite pleased with it's performance. He says that on the steep grades what he did was shift the 6 speed auto transmission down to 4th, to keep the revs up slightly and it kept the speed up, loosing very little performance and mph but definitely lost mpg at least on those relatively short portion of travel.
Towing the hybrid he thinks that he may have lost 20% fuel mileage.

Have you tried looking in Canada for a used Sprinter? I've noticed some Sprinter passenger buses for sale up here -@ not too unreasonable prices, or kilometers. (kilometers / 1.6 = miles) Sometimes they are advertised on Kijiji.
I don't know if you would be allowed to import these into the USA as I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about when you mentioned the "chicken tax"

Wayne

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Wayne Hill

He says that on the steep grades what he did was shift the 6 speed auto transmission down to 4th, to keep the revs up slightly and it kept the speed up, loosing very little

Not to nit pick... But his Sprinter has a 5 speed trans. That's the only one they sent over here with the 5 cylinder vans. Could be a mis-type or he could be mistaking TC lockup for an upshift.

[Wayne Hill]

Good evening mcbrew;

Could be a 5 speed and not a 6. 6 speed is what he told me.
Anyway the thought being that you can shift down, keep the revs up to a reasonable number and get reasonable performance at the expense of mpg.

I've never drove or even sat in a Sprinter so it's all third hand info to me.

Wayne

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Wayne Hill

Good evening mcbrew;

Could be a 5 speed and not a 6. 6 speed is what he told me.
Anyway the thought being that you can shift down, keep the revs up to a reasonable number and get reasonable performance at the expense of mpg.

I've never drove or even sat in a Sprinter so it's all third hand info to me.

Wayne

Wayne, I hope it didn't come across the wrong way. I just wanted to keep the facts straight for those who are seeking info on Sprinter vans. They used a really nice 5 speed transmission that can be shifted manually by tapping the shifter to the right or left. Also, if you hold the sifter to the left, it will drop to the lowest gear possible, which is great for engine braking.

[2yax2go]

Originally Posted by Wayne Hill

2yax2go,
I don't know if you would be allowed to import these into the USA as I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about when you mentioned the "chicken tax"

Wayne

Here ya go, Wayne...a little tidbit from Wikipedia:

Chicken tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does a good job of explaining the "chicken tax" and how it's gotten around by the dealers.

Hadn't considered Canada, dunno the realities of trying to bring it into the states. I suppose if we were gonna be among our northern neighbors anyway it would be something to check out. Still, it's not the craziest thought in the world.

Losing 20% seems like a lot. If you were getting 20 mpg, you'd lose 4 making it 16. We got 22 on the old 6 banger S-10 with no trailer prior to pick up and 16.6 with the rig under tow and empty of gear on the way home with it. But, if you were not losing your speed all that much in tough hauls it might be worth the extra mpg loss under those conditions.

When looking at the mathematics of it all, I have to take into consideration that our plan is not to be tied to the expenses of owning and maintaining a sticks and bricks stay-put place as well as the caravan.

Y'all are giving me and the Handyman good stuff to be thinking about.

[Wayne Hill]

Mcbrew,
Initially yes, I was a little disturbed, sort of. But it passed. I'm dealing with second hand information. As mentioned I can only go by what one owner is telling me. I usually deal in facts that I know or have researched, but tried to add my 2 cents worth.
These vehicle are something I'm generally watching the price of and am interested enough in them to have read problems associated with them on different forums.

2yax2go,
Thanks for the information on the "chicken tax" I haven't read it yet, but I will.
Concerning forums. One thing that I've found is that most people will be highlighting their problem areas on their whatevers. There could be thousands of others that are perfectly happy with their purchase.
20% ? don't really know, just a number that he tossed off the top of his head.
He probably has exact numbers. If you want, I could ask him.
This is a long, tall vehicle, much bigger than the one pictured previously.
He was talking pretty impressive (to me) mileage figures that I just couldn't believe for a vehicle of that size. The forums that I've read, back those numbers up.
I won't quote the figures he is telling me as they are in mpg (using the Canadian gal - Imperial) and not USA mpg. This could be further confused by quoting the Liters/100 kilometers that Canada now uses. It gets complicated.

Lots of good information coming out of this. Thanks to all

Wayne

[mcbrew]

As for problems, we've had a few. Around 60k miles, we lost power, and the dealership diagnosed it as a failed EGR valve. They replaced it under the 100,000 mile emissions system warranty and everything was good. Around 90k miles, we started experiencing another loss of power intermittently. Took it in for a recall repair and they diagnosed the power loss as a failed turbo actuator. I also had them replace the heater control knob cable, which had become very difficult to move. They fixed both issues for about $1,500.

Pricey, to be sure... But expected for dealership work. You just can't take these things to the corner mechanic.

[mcbrew]

I have a lot of experience with European diesels. I have owned about ten Mercedes diesels over the years, as well as volkswagens. My recent experiences with VW diesels has turned me off for the time being. They really screwed things up in recent years. For a couple of years, they had model ps that needed a timing belt every 40 to 60k miles, and they charge over $1,500 for the job. Just the parts cost over $300 and there are special tools and a computer hookup needed. Oh, and to change the auto trans fluid on the newer models (needs to be changed every 40k miles) you need a special filler coupling, a computer, and a few liters of expensive fluid. Basically, everything is way more complicated a d more expensive than it needs to be. I did all of the work on my VW myself, except for the clutch job (bad run of clutches that year), but I kept track Nd figured that it would have cost me approximately $6,000 at a dealership in the 145,000 miles that I owned it. This is not acceptable in my book. You don't buy a modern diesel VW to save money. My experience is limited to six of them between 2003 and 2006 models. By the way, those years include three different engines, all with their own issues.

The reason for this rant is to show that thenSprinter is relatively trouble free compared to other modern Euro diesels. What you should not expect out of a Sprinter is to drive it 300k miles and only change the oil. They will need service and some $$$ thrown at them along the way. On the other hand, we have a 1995 Chevy van with a 6.5L diesel, and it is a whole different beast. It has about the same power as the Sprinter, but needs nearly two and a half times the displacement to get there. It is a much smaller van, but gets a little less MPG than the Sprinter. The Chevy is much more crudely built, and less comfortBle to drive. It actually feels bigger and less maneuverable than the Sprinter. Basically, it feels like someone mated a metal tool shed to a diesel engine and some wheels... None of which seem to be designed to work together. There is nothing I can point to on the Cnevy and say, "that is a well thought out design."

[2yax2go]

Wayne...no need for the exacts...ball park's OK. We've been on several websites that back up the general figures you're quoting and for now that works fine.

Truth is a rig as big as your neighbors would be serious overkill for Li'l Scamp and who ever said we should just live in the Sprinter at that size would probably be right. If we decid on a larger, heavier rig it could be just right. We're still at the "is this 16 footer something we can be in long term" stage. If it Li'l Scamp proves to be THE right size for us the baby Sprinters or something like the Mahindra (if it ever comes to North America) could be a good match. We'll keep our eyes and ears open as the time passes to see what shakes out in the end.

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Pricey, to be sure... But expected for dealership work. You just can't take these things to the corner mechanic.

Beyond the basics you can't take many of the newer vehicles to the corner mechanic any more. Small shops can't afford all the new computerized toys or the training required just to diagnose a challenge, let alone fix it. We have a few specialty shops around here with the equipment and the skills, but they are almost as high as the dealerships.

Every vehicle has its own issues. None are perfect or there'd be fewer choices out there. My experience could be better or worse than another with the same vehicle. YMMV, I think it's put. I have a rather unscientific method that if there are too many of what I'm interested in on the market at a price that seems to be too good to be true, there may be a mechanical reason for that requiring some deeper research or a change of course.

Take the Subaru Forrester as an example. Before I'd ever done any real online research I liked the look of the thing. It seemed there were many on the road while few to be found that weren't more than well travelled on the used market. Those that were in good to excellent shape commanded a higher price than I would have thought and remained out of my price point. Even today I would have one if it fit in my budget. Over the long haul these have continued to be a well manufactured, long lasting, workhorse vehicle earning high marks from groups that do that kind of thing. My long lunged point is that the Sprinters bear watching for our down the road life in a couple year's time.

[Wayne Hill]

2ya2go,
One last thought - well a couple:
2 smaller sprinters cargo vans for sale locally 179000 kms (112000 miles) $13000 $14000.

Have you considered looking at an older 1985 ish Toyota Land Cruiser station wagon
diesel ? They used to come in 4 and 6 cylinder diesels. Good dependable machines, if you can find one that's not rusted out.

I had one years ago. I would buy another one but can't find one that's not rotted out. Lots of them still in the mountains in good shape.

Wayne