Sway bar - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-19-2008, 08:36 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Roger H's Avatar
 
Name: Roger
Trailer: Y2K6 Born Free 32RQ on the Kodiak chassis, 1995 Coachmen 19' B-van and 1996 Precision 21' Sailboat
Iowa
Posts: 5,000
Friction sway control devices have a couple of minor advantages over the Reese Dual Cam hitch. First, they can be used on trailers that the frame is too fragile to use a weight distributing hitch with. Second, they're very simple, and effective if set up and operated properly according to the instructions. A friction sway control device should only be used after the trailer is properly balanced and exhibits no sway tendencies without sway control. Any mechanical sway control applied to a trailer that sways without first determining and correcting the cause of the sway is a dangerous course of action. A mechanical sway control applied to mask sway tendencies will only work until the forces causing a sway event overcome it. At that point, you'll likely crash.

A Reese Dual Cam is one of the most effective weight equalizing/sway control hitch setups available. I've used them exclusively since 1987. They're heavy, and involve several semi-permanent pieces to be installed on the trailer, but they work and work well.

Roger
__________________

__________________
Roger H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 09:13 AM   #30
Member
 
Name: Helen
Trailer: 1981 Trillium 5500
Washington
Posts: 51
Registry
Great discussion, it really helps to hear all your views and experiences. Anyone know why Honda would say no 'WDH' for the Pilot?
__________________

__________________
Helen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 09:34 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
Roger H's Avatar
 
Name: Roger
Trailer: Y2K6 Born Free 32RQ on the Kodiak chassis, 1995 Coachmen 19' B-van and 1996 Precision 21' Sailboat
Iowa
Posts: 5,000
Quote:
Great discussion, it really helps to hear all your views and experiences. Anyone know why Honda would say no 'WDH' for the Pilot?
Hi Helen. The Pilot, like the Ridgeline, is a uni-body vehicle. Unibody vehicles don't have a conventional ladder frame, but use sheetmetal structure that is specifically designed to accept forces in specific vectors... in this case the body is designed to support a downward force of x pounds, and a towing force of x pounds. It is not designed to take forces in the "up" vector that a WDH would apply at the hitch. Applying that force "up" could deform, or worse, rip out the hitch assembly should it be loaded to the maximum... hence the "no WDH". I just looked at the Ridgeline last weekend just for fun. I'm staying with my Tundra.

Roger
__________________
Roger H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 01:10 PM   #32
Member
 
Name: Helen
Trailer: 1981 Trillium 5500
Washington
Posts: 51
Registry
Roger, thanks so much for the information. I'm really glad I read the manual before trying out the WDH! When I hooked up the Trill for the first time the owner checked out how level the trailer frame was on the hitch and said 'Looks like you won't need the WDH.' Now I know what he was talking about. I'm feeling ok with the weight too. The recommended top tow weight for the trailer is 3500lbs. Last weekend I loaded the trailer with everything I thought I might need and went to a public scale.... 2380lbs. I'm going to try to keep under that weight as much as possible. Thanks again, Helen
__________________
Helen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 02:49 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Pete Dumbleton's Avatar
 
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 3,072
Send a message via Yahoo to Pete Dumbleton
I want to add a few thoughts for folks who may be getting confused here.

First, Unibody (no ladder framework under vehicle) construction CAN be designed for strong attachment places (aka hard-points) for things like a WDH, but if they haven't been, a WDH could be a disaster because they exert extreme forces on the vehicle structure. Likewise, BTW, for the trailer itself -- Many small pop-up tent trailers come with a warning to NOT use a WDH.

Second, the above discussions of sway controls are addressing three basic types, which I've listed in order of MY personal preference - YMMV:

1. Dual Cam on WDH where cams are forced into one position and try to get back.

2. WDH with integral friction where points slide and to some extent need to be forced back.

3. Friction anti-sway bar where components slide and must be forced back.



There are also at least two other anti-sway hitches that function in a different manner, the Henseley and Pull-Rite, where the hitch ball is effectively transferred to very close to the TV rear axle and functions like a 5W hitch does (effect is that of reducing TV overhand and also extending TT tongue). These hitches are $$$ and HEAVY, intended for BulgeMobile TTs and unfortunately not very applicable to our smaller TVs and TTs.


__________________
Pete Dumbleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 09:33 PM   #34
Moderator
 
Frederick L. Simson's Avatar
 
Name: Frederick
Trailer: Fiber Stream
California
Posts: 8,151
Registry
Send a message via AIM to Frederick L. Simson
Unhappy

Quote:
Anyone know why Honda would say no 'WDH' for the Pilot?
I find it odd that they would say no WDH for the Pilot, yet insist on one for the Odyssey.
Quote:
Originally posted by ODYSSEY 2003 Owner's Manual
[b]Towing Equipment and Accessories
[b]Weight Distributing Hitch
If the total trailer weight is more than 1,850 Lbs (840 Kg), you must also use a weight-distributing hitch. This device transfers weight from the vehicle's rear wheels to the front wheels, and to the trailer's wheels. Carefully follow the hitch maker's instructions for proper installation and adjustment.
Sway Control
If the total trailer weight exceeds 2,000 Lbs (900 Kg), you should install a sway control device to minimize swaying that can occur in crosswinds and in normal and emergency driving maneuvers. Your trailer maker can tell you what kind of sway control you need and how to install it.
Trailer Brakes
Honda recommends that any trailer having a total weight of 1,000 Lbs (450 Kg) or more be equipped with its own electric or surge-type brakes.
Total trailer weight:
The maximum weight you can tow depends on several factors. See chart below for limits for your towing situation. Towing a load that is too heavy can seriously affect your handling and performance.
Tongue Load:
The weight that the tongue of a fully loaded trailer puts on the hitch should be approximately 10 percent of the trailer weight. Too little tongue load can make the trailer unstable and cause it to sway. Too much tongue load reduces front-tire traction and steering control.
Maximum Total Trailer Weight:
Number of Occupants-----------------------------------Equipped with transmission cooler
Including Driver*-----------------------------------------and power steering fluid cooler
-----2-------------------------------------------------------------3,500 Lbs (1,580 Kg)
-----3-------------------------------------------------------------3,350 Lbs (1,520 Kg)
-----4-------------------------------------------------------------3,200 Lbs (1,450 Kg)
-----5-------------------------------------------------------------3,050 Lbs (1,380 Kg)
-----6-------------------------------------------------------------2,900 Lbs (1,310 Kg)
-----7---------------------------------------------------------------650 Lbs (295 Kg)**
*Based on 150 Lbs (70 Kg) per occupant
**Weight limited to avoid exceeding rear GAWR
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
The maximum allowable weight of the vehicle, all occupants, all cargo, and the tongue load is:
5,665 Lbs (2,570 Kg)
Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR)
The maximum allowable weights on the vehicle axles are:
2,833 Lbs (1,285 Kg) on the front axle, and
2,845 Lbs (1,290 Kg) on the rear axle.
Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR)
The maximum allowable weight of the fully loaded vehicle and trailer is:
8,265 Lbs (3,750 Kg) with the proper hitch and fluid coolers.
__________________
Frederick - The Scaleman
1978 Fiber Stream 16 named "Eggstasy" & 1971 Compact Jr. named "Boomerang"
Frederick L. Simson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 12:00 AM   #35
Member
 
Name: Helen
Trailer: 1981 Trillium 5500
Washington
Posts: 51
Registry
Interesting to compare the two 2003 Honda vehicles Frederick...

I did discover the original owner of the 1981 Trillium 5500 bought the Reese WDH to tow with their 1984 Mercury Grand Marquis! They were great at saving manuals and making notes in them. The second owner forwarded it all to me... I feel so fortunate to have a rich history with my Trill.

Now, to the Honda Pilot vs the Odyssey with sway WDH needs. Not being a car person I'm not sure how to compare the two. Are they actually the same car with a different chassis? Is the Odyssey a 4-wheel drive? Here's what the 2003 Pilot manual say in comparison with the 2003 Odyssey:

Towing Equipment and Accessories
Weight Distributing Hitch
Odyssey:
If the total trailer weight is more than 1,850 Lbs (840 Kg), you must also use a weight-distributing hitch. This device transfers weight from the vehicle's rear wheels to the front wheels, and to the trailer's wheels. Carefully follow the hitch maker's instructions for proper installation and adjustment.
Pilot:
A wieght distributing hitch is not recommended for use with your Pilot as an improperly adjusted weight distributing hitch may reduce handling stability and braking performance. (that's me - I'd be afraid I'd get it wrong. I'm not going to use the old Reese hitch on the Pilot)

Sway Control
Odyssey:
If the total trailer weight exceeds 2,000 Lbs (900 Kg), you should install a sway control device to minimize swaying that can occur in crosswinds and in normal and emergency driving maneuvers. Your trailer maker can tell you what kind of sway control you need and how to install it.
Pilot:
This device is recommended if your trailer tends to sway. Your trailer maker can tell you what kind of sway control you need and how to install it. (So far, the Trill hasn't been swaying...leave well enough alone? I'm now thinking of purchasing sway bars, I'll have to do some more research)


Trailer Brakes
Odyssey:
Honda recommends that any trailer having a total weight of 1,000 Lbs (450 Kg) or more be equipped with its own electric or surge-type brakes.
Pilot:
Honda requires that any trailer with a total trailer weight of 1000lbs or more have its own brakes. (It goes into detail about the difference between surge and electric brakes. The Trill's got brakes and I've got a unit installed in the Pilot)

Total trailer weight:
Both Vehicles:
The maximum weight you can tow depends on several factors. See chart below for limits for your towing situation. Towing a load that is too heavy can seriously affect your handling and performance.

Tongue Load:
Odyssey:
The weight that the tongue of a fully loaded trailer puts on the hitch should be approximately 10 percent of the trailer weight. Too little tongue load can make the trailer unstable and cause it to sway. Too much tongue load reduces front-tire traction and steering control.
Pilot:
The weight that the tondue of a fully loaded trailer puts on the hitch chould be 8 to 15 percent of total trailer weight for trailers.


Maximum Total Trailer Weight: Odyssey Pilot
Number of Occupants-----------------------------------Equipped with transmission cooler
Including Driver*-----------------------------------------and power steering fluid cooler.......................same
-----2-------------------------------------------------------------3,500 Lbs (1,580 Kg).............................same
-----3-------------------------------------------------------------3,350 Lbs (1,520 Kg).............................3,500 Lbs
-----4-------------------------------------------------------------3,200 Lbs (1,450 Kg).............................3,300
-----5-------------------------------------------------------------3,050 Lbs (1,380 Kg).............................3,100
-----6-------------------------------------------------------------2,900 Lbs (1,310 Kg).............................2,700
-----7---------------------------------------------------------------650 Lbs (295 Kg)**.............................1,200
*Based on 150 Lbs (70 Kg) per occupant
**Weight limited to avoid exceeding rear GAWR

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
The maximum allowable weight of the vehicle, all occupants, all cargo, and the tongue load is:
Odyssey: 5,665 Lbs (2,570 Kg) Pilot: 5,950

Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR)
The maximum allowable weights on the vehicle axles are:
Odyssey 2,833 Lbs (1,285 Kg) on the front axle, Pilot 2,865 and
Odyssey 2,845 Lbs (1,290 Kg) Pilot 3,155 on the rear axle.

Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR)
The maximum allowable weight of the fully loaded vehicle and trailer is:
Odyssey 8,265 Lbs (3,750 Kg) with the proper hitch and fluid coolers.
Pilot 9,700 Lbs

__________________
Helen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 08:17 AM   #36
Senior Member
 
Patrick M.'s Avatar
 
Name: Patrick
Trailer: 2007 Casita Liberty (Sold 2011)/ Honda Odyssey
Arizona
Posts: 705
Quote:
Great discussion, it really helps to hear all your views and experiences. Anyone know why Honda would say no 'WDH' for the Pilot?
Probably because the suspension is designed to support the weight of a heavy hitch. Honda requires a WDH with my Odyssey, but I would love to have a vehicle that didn't need it (and still have the room and MPG of the Odyssey!) as it's a lot of heavy metal.
__________________
Patrick M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 10:58 AM   #37
Senior Member
 
Name: Per
Trailer: 2000 Burro 17 ft Widebody towed by Touareg TDI
Oregon
Posts: 863
Registry
Because of the usually deserted but open for business weigh stations here in Oregon I'm able to repeatedly check loads on the axles and keep a fairly tight grip on what's happening. I have opted for no WDH and no sway control but am open to be convinced otherwise.

The allowable tongue weight limit on the Odyssey is 350 lbs. With our trailer checking out at about 2900 lbs (axle weight only) fully decked out the tongue weight is 275 lbs on average. Somewhat less than 10%.

My thinking is that if the allowable tongue weight is not exceeded there may not be the need for WDH. In addition, since our Ody is seldom used to its full people-moving capacity I have temporarily removed the rear bench seat, effectively adding about 100 lbs to the allowable load on the rear axle from tongue weight. The tongue load also effectively removes 99 lbs from the load on the front axle, a trade-off which does not seem excessive to me. I have not encountered a situation yet where the slightly lowered load on the front wheels resulted in unusual lack of traction.

There seem to be some complaints of hitch dragging on the Siennas, but I found this to be probably less of a problem on the Ody. The solution was rear airbags (with an on-board compressor for convenience), and that has worked out extremely satisfactorily. Aside from the clear seat-of-the-pants feeling of greatly improved control they also help keep the hitch further off the ground and the headlights well aimed.

If the tongue weight inched up toward the allowable limit I would consider WDH, but I'm OK without for the time being. As for sway control: we have towed in many kinds of conditions and have yet to encounter any problems (the usual caveats here). I do think that the geometry, weight distribution, center of gravity, and balance of the particular trailer (and the TV wheelbase) has a great deal to do with what happens when big truck pass, strong sidewinds come on and off, etc. Our particular trailer seems not to notice, don't ask me to pin down the exact cause(s). General tracking has been exemplary. I think it is possible to get somewhat of a feel for how the combination would behave under emergency situations without actually encountering them, but that is partially a guess.
__________________
Per Walthinsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 11:34 AM   #38
Senior Member
 
Roger H's Avatar
 
Name: Roger
Trailer: Y2K6 Born Free 32RQ on the Kodiak chassis, 1995 Coachmen 19' B-van and 1996 Precision 21' Sailboat
Iowa
Posts: 5,000
Quote:
I have opted for no WDH and no sway control but am open to be convinced otherwise.
Per, I don't think you need to be "convinced" one way or the other. Whether or not you "need" a WDH/sway control or combination hitch depends entirely on the balance and weight of your specific combination of trailer and tow vehicle.

I used a Reese Dual Cam with my '94 Toyota 4WD extended cab compact truck because even though it was rated for 3500 lbs, the Burro's tongue weight deflected the rear end enough to affect the headlights, and caused the steering to be vague. The trailer never exhibited anything but proper manners with or without the Dual Cam, but the handling with it was remarkable. I towed my Bigfoot 17' behind my 6cyl 4WD access cab Tundra both with and without the WDH, and frankly didn't notice much difference. I did use a friction sway control device with the BF 17 though, although it never exhibited anything but perfect manners either.

Some combinations benefit from a WDH; some wouldn't. There's no one-size-fits-all solution here.

Roger
__________________
Roger H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 10:56 PM   #39
Moderator
 
Frederick L. Simson's Avatar
 
Name: Frederick
Trailer: Fiber Stream
California
Posts: 8,151
Registry
Send a message via AIM to Frederick L. Simson
Talking

Quote:
I'm not sure how to compare the two. Are they actually the same car with a different chassis? [b]Is the Odyssey a 4-wheel drive?
The Odyssey is a front-wheel drive minivan...
Quote:
Originally posted by Edmunds.com
[b]All Pilots sold from 2003-'05 were all-wheel drive
The Pilot is an SUV with a shorter wheelbase, and higher ground clearance.
__________________
Frederick - The Scaleman
1978 Fiber Stream 16 named "Eggstasy" & 1971 Compact Jr. named "Boomerang"
Frederick L. Simson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2008, 02:53 PM   #40
Member
 
Name: Helen
Trailer: 1981 Trillium 5500
Washington
Posts: 51
Registry
Odyssey vs Pilot (sway bar & WDH)... now I understand why there were different recommendations for a weight distributing hitch in the manuals.

If you'd asked me last year (before Trillium) about all of this I would have resoundly said 'huh? Who cares!' Funny how the little details raise in importantance when you get your first egg! Helen
__________________
Helen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2008, 04:55 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
Pete Dumbleton's Avatar
 
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 3,072
Send a message via Yahoo to Pete Dumbleton
Sometimes I cringe when I recall some of the towing I used to do, basically in ignorance of it all despite an engineering background.

I was towing a large boat and trailer with a small car and didn't consider balance (or even know about tongue weight) until I had a bad sway incident on a narrow two-lane bridge (fortunately no one in the on-coming lane). I "instinctively" knew it was a yaw-inertia/polar-momentum problem and move the boat and axles further back on the trailer to reduce the effect on the car. Looking back, I was fortunate that I had enough tongue weight.

BTW, one of these threads was talking about Four Wheel Drive. Contrary to first thought, 4WD generally does NOT improve tow ratings, in fact it usually reduces them by the weight of the gear (same vehicle, more machinery). More drive traction does not help with heat, braking or control in general.

However, where 4WD can be important is if you have 4WheelLowRange and the 'granny' first gear -- That allows one to start the trailer moving when maneuvering in rough or slippery terrain or in reverse, situations that often call for clutch slipping or auto trans heating.
__________________
Pete Dumbleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2008, 09:01 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Trailer: 74 13 ft Boler and 79 17 ft Boler
Posts: 568
Anyone towing with a Nissan Quest?......am considering getting a 2006/2007 and apparently have a 3500 lb. tow rating......hopefully can get rid of my truck and use the Nissan as only vehicle......Benny
__________________

__________________
Benny K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sway Bar Parker Buckley Towing, Hitching, Axles and Running Gear 17 07-24-2010 01:36 PM
What is sway? Ron Davis General Chat 43 07-09-2007 03:13 PM
Sway bar again! Chris Z Towing, Hitching, Axles and Running Gear 27 02-06-2006 07:36 AM
Sway Bar Legacy Posts Problem Solving | Owners Helping Owners 6 07-17-2003 08:24 PM

» Upcoming Events
No events scheduled in
the next 465 days.
» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.