Sway Bars and Electric brakes

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

But seriously, some WDH designs include integrated sway control, but not all do.

A good example of this is the Anderson hitch. But it comes with it's own set of problems and the sway feature is not independently adjustable. More load leveling means more sway resistance. I'm not a big fan of the design.

[John in Santa Cruz]

When I got my Casita 16, towing it with my 2008 Tacoma TRD Off Road 4x4, I found it very 'porpoisy', the tall soft offroad suspension with a relatively short wheelbase and tall 265/70r16 tires made for a pretty bouncy ride in the truck.

I initially got a WDH, this helped immensely, but was a pain to hitch up... the WDH chains weren't bad, it was installing, uninstalling the hitch assembly on the truck's reciever that was a pain, due to how heavy and unweildy it was

so I got airbags on that truck. Firestone Ride-Rite, a kit specific for Tacomas. WOW, what a difference. after one test trip, i never used the WDH again.

now, the Casita 16 was only 3500 lbs *MAX* and probably under 3000 lbs typical, and the 2008 Tacoma 4x4 factory tow is rated for 6500 lbs, with a 650 lb tongue weight, and 1200 lb payload.

I towed our mostly-empty "new" Escape 21 home from Dallas TX area to Santa Cruz via Reno with this same setup, didn't have the WDH, just the airbags, so put 40PSI in them and the escape handled just fine. I've since upgraded trucks to an F250 Diesel which is rated to tow 12500 lbs, and has a 2000 lb payload, and a GCWR such that its almost impossible to exceed the GCWR even with max trailer and near max payload.

Most of my trips have involved mountains, the Sierras, the Cascades, and so forth, and a lot of 2-lane twisty roads.

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

When I got my Casita 16, towing it with my 2008 Tacoma TRD Off Road 4x4, I found it very 'porpoisy', so I got airbags on that truck. Firestone Ride-Rite, a kit specific for Tacomas. WOW, what a difference.

Same problem with my Ranger & SD17 John. Installed the same kit as you did & yes, WOW.

[redbarron55]

According to the research adding airbags gives about 1/2 the effect of a WDH. The air springs increase the rate at the rear and this helps.
It does not transfer any weight to the front nor does it remove any from the rear.
A good method would be to use the air bags to raise the rear to 1 inch below unladen height and then adjust the WDH for 1/2 inch front and back lower than unladen.
Tests done in the 1970 show this provides the best compromise and recommends air bags and WDH.
It is all about making certain that the natural frequency of oscillation is higher than that excited by the speed of the tow .
Extra damping from the sway control system raises that point like adding stiffness to the suspension.
The WDH not only shifts weight towards the front but also adds stiffness front and rear raising the resonant frequency as well.

[Raspy]

Like John, I don't want to use a WDH if I don't have to because they are more trouble and unnecessary a lot of the time. Running along at about half of the rated tongue weight capacity, I see little need for them.

My toy hauler, which I was very glad to get rid of and move to my Oliver, was the worst of all situations. It had a normal tongue weight of about 500 lbs, but it had a 100 gallon water tank set in the very front. This added about 600 more lbs at the ball, when full. So the tongue weight could be anywhere from 500 to 1,100 lbs. A WDH was pretty much required to keep this under control and I hated it.

A lot of modern shock absorbers are velocity sensitive. This means they can move up and down at a slow rate with very little damping, but tighten up on rough roads and at higher speeds. When towing, the "porpoising" is below the frequency that the shocks recognize and they don't damp it out. This is the case, in particular, with Bilstein shocks. They have almost no low frequency damping, so they don't stop the porpoising, but are very good when racing on rough roads.

A good choice for towing are the Rancho 9000 shocks that are adjustable with the turn of a knob. I used them for years on my last truck and loved them. Soft for unloaded, most of the time, on the soft setting, and then very stiff at low frequency, on the stiff setting, while towing. They have about six settings and eliminated all porpoising. And on the soft setting they would still stiffen up enough to prevent the rear tires from skipping around on rough surfaces. Best of both worlds. You don't have to worry about the natural oscillation frequency if you have proper damping. That frequency is constantly changing with varying loads.

[KevinF]

[QUOTE=photodusty;712231]I did a quick search and found a few answers but I thought I would ask here.

If one were to get a camper say and Egg Camper, 17ft and 2,000 pounds,
is there a need for electric brakes?
Is there a need for a sway bar?

Forgive my ignorance....I have only trailered pop ups and cargos with less weight.

We dont own a trailer currently but are hot on the heals of an egg.

Towing with a Toyota Highlander with tow package.

Thanks!

Dusty

Yes you need both. My 17 ft Boler weighs 2950 lbs. with everything except water in it. I got sway one time just outside of Antigonish NS doing 110 kms per hour. Don't want that to ever happen again...

[WaltP]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that many states require brakes for trailers, usually over a specified weight, and that weight can vary from state to state.

As far as using a weight distribution hitch goes, some TV manuals say not to use one.

Walt

[KevinF]

The law here in the Maritimes is everything over 2000 lbs for trailer brakes

[Ak Ron]

Good thoughts to ponder above. E-brakes for me and I would not do sway unless I had problems even though hitch was properly weighted.
I think you will find that a 17’ egg will weigh more than 2000# when loaded and ready to go. Maybe significantly more. Good argument for e-brakes.

[Ron F]

It's interesting to note that although Toyota makes it clear that the van needs to be equipped with an anti-sway device, they don't include an anti-sway device, not to mention additional transmission fluid cooling, in their towing prep package. I love Toyota products, but they would be even more reliable as a tug with some additional transmission cooling.

Just my 2 cents.

Ron


P.S. Your original question mentions EggCamper, and if you're planning on towing an EggCamper (I once owned an EggCamper, great camper), the manufacturer specifically says not to tow with a WDH.

[daver]

ALL states have trailer towing laws which vary widely. Follow the laws in the states you intend to visit. Check here for updated trailer towing laws by state:

https://trailers.com/state-laws/

California has some of the most restrictive laws (surprise) so if you follow theirs you will be covered for most states. In California all trailers of any size or weight made after 1982 require brakes on at least two wheels.

Also ALL motor vehicle manufacturers have maximum speed limits for towing anything. Most limit max towing speed to 65MPH. And remember when you break something on your TV while towing and try to get it fixed under warranty the dealer will be required by the manufacture to check that data in your LBB (little black box) to see how fast you were traveling among other things before honoring the warranty. Experience speaking here.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Ron F

It's interesting to note that although Toyota makes it clear that the van needs to be equipped with an anti-sway device, they don't include an anti-sway device, not to mention additional transmission fluid cooling, in their towing prep package. I love Toyota products, but they would be even more reliable as a tug with some additional transmission cooling.


Just my 2 cents.


Ron

I believe that (for my van at least) Toyota has designed the stock tranny cooling with towing in mind (within given specs of course). When I was thinking about adding a tranny cooler to my Highlander a Toyota service person told me not to add a cooler because, basically, that too much cooling was not good.. that the fluid and transmission was intended to operate at a certain temperature range. Too hot would be worse, but too cold for extended times would also have some negative impact. I dont recall the exact words and I dont know if he was right or not - so much info from Toyota has been wrong.

As for Toyota not providing a sway control device, well they dont provide most of what I need to tow with my Sienna van.. its a long story that I have written about before, but the short version is the official word from Toyota is the do not sell the things needed for towing and they do not endorse any after market brands. Further, I was told that using non-OEM parts might void the warranty.. its mostly lawyer-speak but one should know that you can expect little if any support from Toyota for towing with many of their vehicles, even those marketed as capable of towing.

[Dogtree]

Originally Posted by photodusty

I did a quick search and found a few answers but I thought I would ask here.

If one were to get a camper say and Egg Camper, 17ft and 2,000 pounds,
is there a need for electric brakes?
Is there a need for a sway bar?

Forgive my ignorance....I have only trailered pop ups and cargos with less weight.

We dont own a trailer currently but are hot on the heals of an egg.

Towing with a Toyota Highlander with tow package.

Thanks!

Dusty

We just returned from a 3+ week trip from Washington through Oregon & California and back. Quite a bit of up/down 2 lane roads and highways. Only a few stretches of rough gravel roads. We highly recommend anti sway bars AND electric brakes. Even 2,000 lbs on a strong tow vehicle can get you in trouble, especially with wet slick surfaces, unexpected mud, small rock slides, etc. Be safe!

[RCW]

Hi We've got a 17 foot boler. We tow with a Rav, electric brakes and also the sway bars. Life is good!

[Ion]

> In BC (British Columbia) the towing limit for brakes is 3500 lbs.
> If you want to be safe, use tandem axles. They inhibit sway.
> Always use trailer tires and rims - they are designed for the trailer. Using passenger car tires and rims is a real no-no in some provinces and states. The trailer does not have to deal with turning in the same fashion as a car.
> You must respect the fact that you might overload the trailer front or rear of the axles. You must always have tongue weight but not so much as to excessively push the tow vehicle rear down. (10% of the towed weight)
> Under inflated tires (softer ride? wrong) creates heat and blowouts. Inflate to 45 psi
> Every tire has a date of manufacture (DOM) on the inside wall of the tire. Respect it and change the tires after 6 years from the DOM. Tires get old even when standing still for three years.

[Ion]

Need sway bars? Better check the front/rear weight distribution. Too little tongue weight is the culprit. Weather conditions is a different issue.

And dont try to keep up to the highway traffic, stay slow and save fuel. I drive at about 10 - 15 % below the posted limit. Trailer is under control.

[ShelbyM]

Maybe a good time to remind folks there are actual facts and then there are opinions about stuff. Often both in the same post

[Wayne Collins]

Originally Posted by Ion

> In BC (British Columbia) the towing limit for brakes is 3500 lbs.
> If you want to be safe, use tandem axles. They inhibit sway.
> Always use trailer tires and rims - they are designed for the trailer. Using passenger car tires and rims is a real no-no in some provinces and states. The trailer does not have to deal with turning in the same fashion as a car.
> You must respect the fact that you might overload the trailer front or rear of the axles. You must always have tongue weight but not so much as to excessively push the tow vehicle rear down. (10% of the towed weight)
> Under inflated tires (softer ride? wrong) creates heat and blowouts. Inflate to 45 psi
> Every tire has a date of manufacture (DOM) on the inside wall of the tire. Respect it and change the tires after 6 years from the DOM. Tires get old even when standing still for three years.

REBUTTAL: Air pressure should be according to the actual load on the tire. Light load? Less pressure, and vice-versa. As long as you can hold your hand on the tire sidewalk after running at highway speeds for 50 - 100 miles, you're good to go.
The age of the tire is less a factor as the conditions to which it is exposed. Keep away from the sun, remove some load when stored, avoid overinflation ,,,etc. they can last 10 years and more.

[Ion]

What I have stated are the rules I tow by. No BS. Do as you wish but you will have to accept the consequences.

Ion

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Wayne Collins

...As long as you can hold your hand on the tire sidewalk after running at highway speeds for 50 - 100 miles, you're good to go...

I have not come across a single tire manufacturer that recommends a "hand temperature test" as a reliable way to assess correct air pressure. I'm thinking that's not what you meant, but it could be taken that way.

Many trailer tire manufacturers publish a load-inflation chart, giving minimum safe air pressures for given loads. If you use them, (1) you must know the actual gross axle weight of your trailer- no guessing, and (2) unless you weigh each wheel separately on every trip, you should allow a generous additional margin to allow for weight variations and unequal left-right balance.

Those are minimums, but many manufacturers recommend always inflating trailer tires to the maximum sidewall pressure, typically 50 psi for load range C and 65 for load range D ST tires. Anything between the load-inflation minimum and the sidewall maximum is fair game (and hotly debated in these parts), but there is this. Far more tire failures are caused by underinflation than overinflation, so I know in which direction I would err.

I inflate my Scamp 13's tires to 43.7 psi, and if you ask me why I'll probably tell you I used a Ouija board...

The hand temperature test is a good practice nevertheless- a quick feel of tire and hub temperatures at every stop could catch a developing problem. But it's not a substitute for daily pressure checks with a good quality gauge. Once things get hot, damage has already been done.

Installing a trailer TPMS is another add-on safety device worth considering along with electric brakes, sway bars, weight distributing hitch...