Sway Bars and Electric brakes

[photodusty]

I did a quick search and found a few answers but I thought I would ask here.

If one were to get a camper say and Egg Camper, 17ft and 2,000 pounds,
is there a need for electric brakes?
Is there a need for a sway bar?

Forgive my ignorance....I have only trailered pop ups and cargos with less weight.

We dont own a trailer currently but are hot on the heals of an egg.

Towing with a Toyota Highlander with tow package.

Thanks!

Dusty

[Byron Kinnaman]

Electric Brakes... YES
Anti Sway friction bars NO

[David Tilston]

Electric brakes are never a bad idea. Who does not want to be able to stop quicker?

Also in terms of sway. The best way to correct sway is to apply only the trailer brakes. You will of course need a brake controller as well. Get a proportional controller. These have a two major controls. The proportional adjustment, which is the amount of braking voltage sent to the trailer as a proportion of the braking that the tow vehicle is doing. Typically this is measured with acceleration, (deceleration?). The other control is the the manual brake leaver. This is what allows you to apply only the trailer brakes. Get familiar with it's operation. When the trailer starts to sway, you want to be able to activate the trailer brakes almost instinctively.

The best way to stop trailer sway altogether is to pack your trailer correctly. At least 10% of the load should be on the tongue. Also, don't pack heavy items rear of the axle.

[Byron Kinnaman]

The state of Oregon puts out a nice little pamphlet on towing a travel trailer. Even though it's titled "towing a trailer in Oregon" most applies through out North American.

https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Safety/D...ngATrailer.pdf

[Raspy]

Absolutely get brakes on the trailer. Of course. The only reason this might be debatable is because of the cost, but the cost means nothing in an emergency.

If you begin to have an uncontrolled sway problem, you can fix it immediately with trailer brakes. Imagine yourself on a blind curve in the rain and suddenly there is stopped traffic ahead. Without trailer brakes this will very likely lead to a jackknife crash that even anti-lock brakes cannot prevent. If you have to make an emergency stop, even in a straight line in dry weather, you'll be able to stop safer and quicker with trailer brakes. Now imagine a long downgrade on the highway. Often TV brakes fade under these conditions and especially with the added load of the trailer pushing you. Then you have no brakes at all.

A small additional advantage is less wear on the TV brakes, but that is only a minor argument in favor of trailer brakes.

Going without trailer brakes is just gambling. And it's gambling with not only your safety and equipment, but other's as well.

[Glenn Baglo]

I use a weight distribution hitch with my RAV4 and Escape 17B.
I do not have sway bars and don't need them because the WDH makes for a secure and comfortable ride. I've had occasion to make a radical lane change and emergency braking. The WDH makes the combo of trailer and tow feel like a single unit.

Have brakes, of course.

[ShelbyM]

I prefer using a friction anti sway bar. AFAIK there is no downside, given proper use. There are well known considerations when backing up and on slippery roads but they cost less than $100 and add maybe 5 minutes to the hitch/ unhitch. Obviously it shouldn't be used to mask a poor set up. I consider it insurance in case of an unplanned event. As far as brakes on the trailer, I can't think of a reason to not have them.

[Timber Wolf]

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

I prefer using a friction anti sway bar. AFAIK there is no downside, given proper use. There are well known considerations when backing up and on slippery roads but they cost less than $100 and add maybe 5 minutes to the hitch/ unhitch. Obviously it shouldn't be used to mask a poor set up. I consider it insurance in case of an unplanned event. As far as brakes on the trailer, I can't think of a reason to not have them.

This^^^^ I love my brakes AND friction sway controller and would not be without either.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

I prefer using a friction anti sway bar. AFAIK there is no downside, given proper use. There are well known considerations when backing up and on slippery roads but they cost less than $100 and add maybe 5 minutes to the hitch/ unhitch. Obviously it shouldn't be used to mask a poor set up. I consider it insurance in case of an unplanned event. As far as brakes on the trailer, I can't think of a reason to not have them.

There's always a down side. First anti-sway bar masks real problems and can create a much worse situation.

[Jon in AZ]

True, Byron, but that's easily dealt with. One, you can weigh your trailer and tongue to verify correct balance. Two, you can do a test-tow with the sway bar disconnected to check dynamic stability. Both are good practices regardless of whether you choose to use a sway bar or not.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Electric Brakes... YES
Anti Sway friction bars NO

LOL someone should tell Toyota that...

My van's manual makes it clear that the van needs to be equipped with a anti-sway device when towing trailers over a certain weight (the number escapes me at the moment). So if one did not have a sway control device and ended up in a sway situation and accident that resulted in injury or property damage to someone else, one could be held civilly liable.

Now maybe I don't need a sway control device based on the laws of physics. After all, trailer weight in only one of many factors that affect a trailers propensity to sway so it is rather silly to make a blanket requirement based on that alone.

I only suggest you review your owner's manual and either equip your tug as it says, or accept the potential liability.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

There's always a down side. First anti-sway bar masks real problems and can create a much worse situation.

I hope people don't install sway bars simply to "mask" a real problem. Not sure what the "much worse" problem is that they can cause. But I will admit that I add air to my tires to mask a flat tire and that air can cause a much worse situation if I add too much.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by gordon2

LOL someone should tell Toyota that...

My van's manual makes it clear that the van needs to be equipped with a anti-sway device when towing trailers over a certain weight (the number escapes me at the moment). So if one did not have a sway control device and ended up in a sway situation and accident that resulted in injury or property damage to someone else, one could be held civilly liable.

Now maybe I don't need a sway control device based on the laws of physics. After all, trailer weight in only one of many factors that affect a trailers propensity to sway so it is rather silly to make a blanket requirement based on that alone.

I only suggest you review your owner's manual and either equip your tug as it says, or accept the potential liability.

You win the lottery for the first one that wants to argue with me.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

You win the lottery for the first one that wants to argue with me.

Yea I'm fast...

But its no argument...In fact I even said that I might not need one based on the laws of physics, which is basically agreeing with you.

So not arguing.. just providing some some facts. If you doubt the facts I can scan and post the pertinent pages my the owner's manual.

Next question... do I need a driver's license? I know how to drive and and will no safer on the road if I don't have one. But legally.. thats another mater. I am illegal if I drive without a driver's license (on public roads). I could be civilly liable without a sway control device. Thats just a few facts of life.

[Raspy]

Gordon,

Kinda silly to argue for a piece of gear based solely on the resultant possible liability if you don't use it, and if the worst happens.

The best reason to be prudent and use the proper gear is to avoid wrecks and endangerment of others in the first place, not just to escape possible liability if you don't.

If you only make life decisions based on avoiding possible legal problems, you are only fooling yourself and living in a fantasy world, while at the same time, discounting the value of others lives. In other words, someone might not care if others on the highway get hurt, as long as they personally don't get blamed. I'm sure you are not in that category, but the argument is the same. And that seems to be the main thrust of your argument. Further, anyone can get sued for anything and the deeper pocket is likely to pay.

I don't see the downside of using a friction anti-sway device as the vehicle manufacturer recommends. Or using one even if they make no recommendation.

The only exception to this, that I have seen, is when an Anderson hitch was causing a problem with a TV stability control system and Anderson recommended the owner turn off the vehicle's stability control! Yikes! Wrong answer. That was a situation where Anderson was apparently setting themselves up for severe liability, and setting up a customer to be injured. I challenged them on that statement and I hope nobody followed their advice.

[Byron Kinnaman]

There's a problem with WDH and friction anti-sway devices. All trailer couplers are designed to allow the connection between the tow vehicle and trailer to be free and move freely. When you defeat that free movement you're asking for all kinds of trouble. Look at any commercial connection between tow vehicle and trailer and won't see any thing at resembles WDH or Anti-sway.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by photodusty

...
Is there a need for a sway bar?
...

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Electric Brakes... YES
Anti Sway friction bars NO

Well, IMHO maybe you do and maybe you don't. BK said it best in a different thread on another subject:

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

... It all depends on a number variables. Making general statements is generally not totally correct.

Actually you likely don't need one.. but there is always a chance that it would be a good idea to have one. So I won't make a general, blanket suggestion about sway control. Brakes on the other hand always give you an advantage and are usually cost-effective.

Edit: By the way, there is a new generation of trailer sway control devices coming up that are built into the tow vehicle. They activate the trailer brakes by computer control when sway starts. They might even be mandated in a few years - who knows.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Raspy

...

Kinda silly to argue for a piece of gear based solely on the resultant possible liability if you don't use it, and if the worst happens.
...

I see your point but I have to believe that there was input from the automotive engineers at Toyota, based on the laws of physics, that resulted in that requirement in the manual, even if lawyers were also influential.

Perhaps it has more to do with the amount of trailer surface area in an areas of strong cross winds, but because no almost no one knows how much surface area their trailer has, they instead used trailer weight as a guideline. I can't say how they came up with the requirement but it seems there must be a reason based on physics. So I assume there is more reason than potential liability alone.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by gordon2

I see your point but I have to believe that there was input from the automotive engineers at Toyota, based on the laws of physics, that resulted in that requirement in the manual, even if lawyers were also influential.

Perhaps it has more to do with the amount of trailer surface area in an areas of strong cross winds, but because no almost no one knows how much surface area their trailer has, they instead used trailer weight as a guideline. I can't say how they came up with the requirement but it seems there must be a reason based on physics. So I assume there is more reason than potential liability alone.

Any automobile manufacturer first thing is CYA. Sometimes those making decisions about what to say and not say are least qualified.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by gordon2

So if one did not have a sway control device and ended up in a sway situation and accident that resulted in injury or property damage to someone else, one could be held civilly liable.

I only suggest you review your owner's manual and either equip your tug as it says, or accept the potential liability.

These are the two statements I was referring too. Not anything from the manufacturers. There is no mention here of concern about pain and suffering that one might cause, just the possible legal liability in case there is. It's advice on how to avoid liability, but not on how to avoid damage to others. It reflects the type of society we live in today and it bothers me.